The Tudors (Part 2): Henry VII & Establishing the Tudor Dynasty (with Anna Morris)
Artie Mead: ‘Welcome back to the Tudors: A Real Game of Thrones series by The History Buff. And as you know, in this series, I’m going to be joined by a very good friend and fellow History Buff, Anna Morris. In the last episode, we talked about how the Tudors won the English crown at Bosworth Fields on the 22nd of August, 1485. Okay, so in the last episode, we talked about the Wars of the Roses and the events leading up to her death—Henry Tudor winning the English crown on Bosworth Field on the 22nd of August, 1485. In this episode, the second episode, we’re going to talk about his reign, where he ruled as King Henry VII. So, he was actually symbolically crowned at Bosworth Field. Richard III, who he defeated at Bosworth Field, he had actually crowned himself symbolically before the battle, which I think was quite a stupid move, to be honest, personally. But basically—’
Anna Morris: ‘You would definitely have done that, Artie.’
Artie Mead: ‘I would have done that, definitely.’
Anna Morris: ‘You’re such an exhibitionist.’
Artie Mead: ‘I would have probably done that, yeah, I know. But it would have had to have been—’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘The crown would have had to been seriously starving.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. Probably dripping in your enemy’s blood.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, and apparently that’s what—it was in for Richard. So his crown was found bloodstained underneath a bush after the battle. And so, that is why Henry was then crowned symbolically on the battlefield. But obviously, he’s not officially crowned then because you have to be officially crowned by an archbishop. To be honest, there is also another image from this battle, from the Battle of Bosworth Field, that I think is very important. And I think it does kind of set up what we’re going to be talking about today, which is obviously Henry VII’s reign as the first Tudor king in our series. And that is the image of a dead Richard III—defeated Richard III—naked and bloody being paraded around Bosworth Field after the battle. And to be honest, I think this would have scarred Henry VII.’
Anna Morris: ‘Absolutely. Bearing in mind that the way he died, he actually lost a quarter of his skull, the back of his head, so it would have been blood dripping, mangled head.’
Artie Mead: ‘Also—Oh my God, side note, didn’t realize that he was found underneath a car park, like—’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘I just saw that.’
Anna Morris: ‘It was a huge deal.’
Artie Mead: ‘Huge deal. And obviously, at the time I didn’t really, I didn’t really think about it.’
Anna Morris: ‘500 years later, I think this was, like, no one ever found his body after this parade. And most kings are supposed to be buried—’
Artie Mead: ‘Westminster.’
Anna Morris: ‘Is it Westminster?’
Artie Mead: ‘Westminster Abbey.’
Anna Morris: ‘Westminster Abbey. And he wasn’t. And they never found his body until 500 years later under a car park.’
Artie Mead: ‘Under a car park. And I remember at the time, I just didn’t really think about it. And then I saw it recently and I was like, “Ah, okay.” You know, the worst king in English history was found. His remains were found. Crazy. Anyway, side note—so seeing this, I think it definitely scarred the new king, because simply for the fact that it made him realize that it could happen— that that could happen to him.’
Anna Morris: ‘Surely. I think setting the mood for his reign, he’s coming out of—you know, we’ve seen the crown being passed back and forth for years, and then each of those kings has reached an end. And suddenly, I think the paranoia must have hit, because that could have been him. That could be him.’
Artie Mead: ‘That could be him at any time. Because that’s the thing—when you’re on the throne, doesn’t matter what throne, but when you’re on the throne, you always have a—’
Anna Morris: ‘A target on your back.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. So yeah, I guess this image sort of, I think, was burned into his memory and really kind of then set up the reign that he was going to have, which we are obviously going to dive into over the course of this episode. You know, being afraid of rebellions and being overthrown. And, you know, that was a constant threat for him. So he wins the crown. He is officially crowned on the 30th of October, 1485. Okay. And then he summoned his first Parliament a week later on the 7th of November. And he actually does something rather sneaky here. He actually changes the date that he became king to a day earlier. So he has the day that he became king entered into official records as the 21st of August, 1485, instead of the 22nd of August, 1485. And the reason that he did this is because he wanted to essentially be able to accuse everyone who fought for Richard, his opponent, as traitors. Okay. And he was then able to use this as a pretext for seizing their land, seizing more power. Okay. So this actually really did kind of, I think, set up his reign. And it was actually a pretty clever—it was a sneaky move, but it was a clever move.’
Anna Morris: ‘I think this is a pattern with Henry VII and actually why he is—I mean, we’ll assess at the end of the series, but to be honest, I think Henry VII is my—I have the most respect for Henry VII as a monarch in—
Artie Mead: ‘Why? Tell me why.’
Anna Morris: ‘So firstly, I’m really happy that we’re doing an episode on Henry VII because I feel like he isn’t given the time of day. He’s very much overshadowed by sex and scandal that follows.’
Artie Mead: ‘Sex and scandal, yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘And because he, you know—because his priorities were finances, stability, something that wasn’t particularly sexy for the time.You know, I mean, how much did you know about Henry VII before we started researching?’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, I’m not gonna lie. I’m not gonna lie. I mean, I remember some stuff from school because you definitely learn about it in school. But I think kids probably then very quickly forget about Henry VII because obviously there’s just not really as much, you know, drama and sort of scandal and all of that kind of stuff.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. There’s not as many, like, nursery rhymes or songs.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. Yeah. And I think that is the thing that obviously sticks in your mind as a kid.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘So yeah, I’m not gonna lie, I’ve been doing a lot of research recently, and he is a very interesting monarch and I think one who obviously had a very profound impact on British royal history.’
Anna Morris: ‘I think what’s really impressive about him is if we compare, which we will do, the beginning of his reign versus the end of his reign, what had changed.’
Artie Mead: ‘What—the state of England?’
Artie Mead: ‘The state of England. And he came from an incredibly difficult position. I mean, even his—I mean, not even —’
Artie Mead: ‘With a very weak claim to the throne.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. The fight for his crown was actually the easiest part.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘He, you know, is crowned, and what are the challenges facing him? An incredibly war-torn country, like, riddled with Yorkists—the enemy—essentially, people who didn’t respect his claim to the throne because it was fairly weak. Then, you know, there was no money in the royal coffers. I mean, everything had been spent. I mean, England was in complete disarray. He also recognized that England was not hugely respected on an international stage anymore. They’d been, you know, concentrating on the civil war, and, you know, the financial and economic situation of England, of the people, of the government, was in tatters. So, lots of enemies, no money, constantly looking over his back—over his shoulder, over his back.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, constantly looking over his shoulder because he, you know, has this very tenuous claim to the throne. And, you know, he knows that other people know this. And just because he intends to marry a Yorkist woman, which we will come into in a second, that doesn’t mean that Yorkists are suddenly like, oh, you know, embrace this man attached to the House of Lancaster and be like, oh yeah, okay, we accept you as king. Quite the opposite. So on the 7th of November, yeah, he changes the date of when he becomes king—very sneaky, but very clever. And then in January 1486, to solidify his claim to the throne and to, in an attempt to unify the warring houses of Lancaster and of York, symbolized obviously by the red rose for the House of Lancaster and the white rose for the House of York, Henry married Elizabeth of York.’
Anna Morris: ‘Now, Elizabeth of York also had a much stronger claim in terms of royal bloodlines through her father, Edward IV.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘So not only is—’
Artie Mead: ‘Although, she had been declared illegitimate by Edward III—by Richard III. See, almost slipping back into our thing in the last episode.’
Artie Mead: ‘I think Richard III just loved to go around claiming everyone is illegitimate.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘He’s like, Henry VI is illegitimate, Richard of Shrewsbury is illegitimate, Elizabeth of York is illegitimate. He’s like, illegitimate.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘And then he ends up under a car park.’
Artie Mead: ‘He ends up under a car park. But then, also, Henry has to actually get a—he has to pass an Act of Parliament to get her un-illegitimize.’
Anna Morris: ‘Un-illegitimize.’
Artie Mead: ‘Un-illegitimize. Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Delegitimize?’
Artie Mead: ‘‘Delegitimize. No, legitimize.’
Anna Morris: ‘Wait, to make her legitimate.’
Artie Mead: ‘To make her legitimate, yes. To make legitimate. To make legitimate.’
Anna Morris: ‘To legitimize her.’
Artie Mead: ‘To legitimize her, yes. He did that. They married in January 1486. And obviously, this union symbolized the end of the Wars of the Roses. And he thus merged the houses of York and of Lancaster. And that is why you now get the Tudor rose, okay, which is the York rose superimposed onto the Lancaster rose. So yeah, the Lancaster is obviously because Henry was from the House of Lancaster. So that obviously has to be the biggest background part of the rose, and then you have the white rose of York superimposed in the middle. Okay. And the thing is, if you go to London or any other sort of royal city in England, you will see the Tudor rose. It became a royal symbol of England, and you will see it plastered over royal buildings all over the country. Still to this day. However, obviously, he’s very worried about, you know, his claim to the throne. And what is a claim to the throne secured by?’
Anna Morris: ‘Having as—securing your dyasty.’
Artie Mead: ‘Securing your dynasty. So this was his, I think, I guess you could say his number one priority.’
Anna Morris: ‘Number one priority because obviously it legitimizes, and it—’
Artie Mead: ‘Legitimizes his claim.’
Anna Morris: ‘It gives you some stability in the future of your dynasty. So that’s what he did very quickly. He had his first son, which was obviously hugely celebrated.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Arthur, Prince Artie.’
Anna Morris: ‘Prince Artie.’
Artie Mead: ‘Prince Artie. He was born in September 1486, followed by quite a few other children. You had Margaret in 1489, Henry in 1491, Elizabeth in 1492, Mary in 1496, and Edmund in 1499. Although actually, three of these children never made it to adulthood.’
Anna Morris: ‘The really good thing about that is, obviously, in this day and age, you really want to have a son to secure a dynasty. The crown is passed—’
Artie Mead: ‘Secured by the male line of succession.’
Anna Morris: ‘Secured by the old male line of succession. So what we see here is Henry VII has the Prince of Wales, Arthur, known as the heir, and Henry VIII, who is known as the spare. So just bear in mind for future episodes that Henry VIII was actually not born to be king. His brother Arthur was.’
Artie Mead: ‘Second-born son. So he didn’t—he was actually, obviously, second in line to the throne. So yeah, he wasn’t originally meant to inherit. But I believe it was actually, yes, Elizabeth and Edmund died very soon after they were born. And we will come on to the others a little bit later.’
Anna Morris: ‘That ticks box number one. If we’re talking about challenges facing Henry VII, a huge one was instability. How did he do this? He married Elizabeth of York, had lots of children with her, and therefore united the Houses of Lancaster and York. This does not, however, eradicate Yorkist threat.’
Artie Mead: ‘And also, I think, to be honest, they were both still quite suspicious, even though they were married. I think, at first, they still were quite suspicious.’
Anna Morris: ‘Actually, so it’s Polydore Vergil who was kind of—let’s call him the official blogger of Henry VII, the guy that kind of documents the life of a king or a monarch as they go through life. He actually wrote of the kind of subtle, blossoming love of Elizabeth of York and Henry VII, how they came together out of convenience, but, by the suspicious, definitely not in love—but actually, what they had was, even for those times, a very stable, strong marriage. And they actually grew very, very close.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, they did. They grew to, like, really respect each other.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, they really—they write very fondly, you know, when they—’
Artie Mead: ‘And the people of England also—this is very key—they grew to really love Elizabeth as well.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. Not to say he does not have certain struggles with Yorkists, even if his wife grows to love him. Should we talk about the kind of rivals and rebellions?’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. So basically, as I said in the last episode, he had to deal with a lot of rebellions. Most of these got put down without any problem because—’
Anna Morris: ‘More due to their lack of organization and funding.’
Artie Mead: ‘Disorganization, you mean.’
Anna Morris: ‘Did I say un—’
Artie Mead: ‘Unorganization? Yeah. I always try to—although, call me out when I also get something grammatically wrong as well.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. Would have or would of?’
Artie Mead: ‘Would of? Yeah, exactly. Stop that. So, the first is, you had quite a few people who—’
Anna Morris: ‘Had claims to the throne, essentially.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, people who pretended to be people who had claims to the throne.’
Anna Morris: ‘This is actually—I find this quite funny. The whole—it’s honestly, for lack of a better word, batshit. And this outlines what is to come in this period.
Artie Mead: ‘So you have multiple pretenders.’
Anna Morris: ‘Picture the scene: you have an individual, like Edward, the Earl of Warwick, who essentially has quite a strong claim to the throne. So what does Henry do? He gets—when he’s crowned, he puts Edward in the Tower. Edward’s in the Tower. Fast forward a few years later, you have—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, in 1487.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. You have an individual called Lambert Simnel—’
Artie Mead: ‘Who’s child—Yeah, he claimed to be the Duke of Warwick and that he’d escaped, obviously, the Tower of London. But Henry VII disproved this by parading the actual Duke of Warwick in the streets of London. These rumours actually attracted the supporters of the Yorkist cause and those dissatisfied with Henry VII’s rule. And actually, so on the 24th of May, 1487, Lambert Simnel was actually crowned in Ireland as King Edward VI, and an army was organized to invade England in support of Simnel. But—’
Anna Morris: ‘So these 2,000 German mercenaries were actually paid with Yorkist money. However, there was a battle on the 16th of June.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. So upon landing in England—’
Anna Morris: ‘The Battle of Stoke.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, Battle of Stoke. Stoke. So when he arrived in England, he actually didn’t get any support. He didn’t amass any sort of public support. And so, that led to him and his supporters being crushed on the 16th of June, 1487, on the Battle of Stoke.’
Anna Morris: ‘So, what we’ll see is to kind of divide Henry VII’s rule. The first, I’d say, 10 years were very much about crushing rebellions, dealing with enemies, and securing the throne in a wider scheme—not just through marriage, but, you know, getting rid of those threats. Second half is definitely more of a futuristic reign in terms of financials and international position. But actually, what I do like about the story of the fake Earl of Warwick is that when they were obviously caught after the Battle of Stoke, Henry VII actually beheaded all of them except Lambert Simnel, who was sentenced to work in the palace kitchens for the rest of his life.’
Artie Mead: ‘I think that’s kind of cute of him, to be honest.’
Anna Morris: ‘I think through doing this, Henry VII was kind of trying to—’
Artie Mead: ‘Extend an olive branch.’
Anna Morris: ‘No, not really. I think it was more—well, firstly, he recognized that Lambert Simnel was, you know, young and a complete puppet for, you know, the Earl of Lincoln, who was behind this. However, I think Henry VII was trying to show some kind of compassion as a king to get, you know, for PR purposes. He had a habit of being—he was very clever like this; he knew how to position himself. If he beheaded everyone, including, you know, the individual that’s been used as a puppet, used in this rebellion, actually doesn’t have much of a clue—then he’s seen as very cruel. This way, he is seen as the merciful king who forgives. That gives him a good reputation in the lands.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And actually, Lambert Simnel was still alive in 1525. So actually, you know, he lived for quite a few more years. But then, the pretender who actually caused Henry quite a bit of trouble was someone called Perkin Warbeck. So in 1493, Perkin Warbeck arrives in Cork, and in Ireland, and claims to be Richard, Duke of York. So, the younger brother of Edward V, who was imprisoned in the Tower of London by Richard III.’
Anna Morris: ‘So, this is an interesting point. Remember from the last episode—the princes in the Tower? So, these mysteries—’
Artie Mead: ‘Who were never seen!’
Anna Morris: ‘Never seen again. But this mystery of what happened to them—’
Artie Mead: ‘Although, yeah, as you said, skeletons were found. So in 1674, some skeletons were found, but they were never identified.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, they never tested the DNA.
Artie Mead: ‘No.’
Anna Morris: ‘But actually, because the fate of the princes in the Tower was so uncertain, this was used as something to stand behind. So it gives rise to Perkin Warbeck to impersonate.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘Actually, interestingly, there is a theory that Henry VII was the one who arranged for the actual prince’s in the Tower to be killed. So, they were alive this whole time. But there is, you know, a theory that he was the one that killed them—not Richard III.’
Artie Mead: ‘Alright. Okay. We don’t have time to go into discussing that conspiracy theory. Obviously, it was significant because Henry’s claim to the throne was based on the fact that he was married to Henry IV’s daughter and the fact that his, obviously, his two actual sons had disappeared. So that was obviously—that was a big cause of instability for Henry VII when he found out about this, okay? Also, someone who had supported Henry at the Battle of Bosworth, Sir William Stanley—’
Anna Morris: ‘Who arguably won the Battle of Bosworth.’
Artie Mead: ‘Pretty much. He was the one who basically swung it in Henry’s favour. He actually supported this pretender’s claim to the throne and—’
Anna Morris: ‘Really can’t trust anybody.’
Artie Mead: ‘I know. You really can’t trust anyone. Now, what’s interesting is that he actually, first of all, tried to get support from France, and then Henry had to invade France and say, okay, no, you need to stay out of our affairs. Okay. So then he goes up to Scotland, and he actually manages to become quite friendly with King James IV of Scotland. And he actually marries him off to the daughter of a Scottish nobleman.’
Anna Morris: ‘He also tried to get support from Maximilian I of Austria.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, really?’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, he literally went around, trotted around Europe just trying to get support.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Which is very ballsy for someone who’s just impersonating.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, do you know what he actually was originally? He was a Flemish cloth merchant. He was a cloth merchant from, yeah, somewhere in Flanders.’
Anna Morris: ‘Do you think he had to put on an accent the whole time? Because obviously, the princes in the Tower would have been well-spoken English monarch children.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, I know. ‘
Anna Morris: ‘And this Flemish cloth merchant—’
Artie Mead: No. But apparently, he did actually look and dress very like Richard, even though this was—
Anna Morris: ‘What, like 13-year-old Richard?’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘But he still has to sound like him, like a Flemish cloth merchant.’
Artie Mead: ‘No, but he had spent a lot of time in—’
Anna Morris: ‘Practised his—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. His enunciation.’
Artie Mead: ‘Then the Scots basically try to invade England, but then obviously this gets Henry VII’s attention. He attacks Scotland in 1497. But also, what happens is you actually have a rebellion in Cornwall. So when he’s trying to fight against Scotland, trying to raise money, he imposes taxes on the Cornish to raise money for this campaign against Scotland. And so the Cornish rebelled, and they marched towards London. And this caused, obviously, a significant internal threat because Henry’s army was up in the north.
Anna Morris: ‘And the Cornish are coming.’
Artie Mead: ‘The Cornish are coming. So he had to redirect his forces to suppress the rebellion. And at the Battle of Blackheath on the 17th of June, 1497, the Royal Army decisively defeated the Cornish rebels. However, he knew that he couldn’t execute the Cornish. Well, he could have, but he decided to punish them financially. And, you know, raise these taxes because when he had come to the throne, England’s coffers were empty. So he knew that a better way of, you know, raising money, instead of killing these people who could be a source of money, he taxed them down in Cornwall.’
Anna Morris: ‘So this leads us into Henry’s financial policy, economic policy, which is arguably why his image was not particularly good throughout England, because you didn’t have this kind of glory—like a glorious king bringing England international glory and riches, and wealth. He was very withdrawn. He was seen as very greedy, but fundamentally, at the beginning of his reign, he had no money. By the end of his reign, the royal coffers were full. He had lots of money. How does he do this? He has a very savage tax policy in terms of, you know, taking land from people, very high taxes, buying their land, and then leasing it out essentially to the landowners.
He also had a group of not even tax collectors, but just collectors who would go out to the rich subjects. And if you saw one of them coming down your sweeping driveway, you were in trouble because Henry would encourage these rich subjects to make gifts to him. And, you know, they’d visit selected persons, and they’d be put under a huge amount of pressure to make gifts out of respect and as a sign of goodwill for Henry, which was, you know, a very public display of, I agree with Henry—even though he’s low-key robbing you.’
Artie Mead: ‘It was pretty smart, but also just to finish up with Warbeck as well—’
Anna Morris: ‘He was then executed.’
Artie Mead: ‘No, but he had actually attempted to exploit the Cornish Rebellion by landing in Cornwall and rallying support, but his efforts failed, and he was captured by Henry VII’s forces.’
Anna Morris: ‘I feel like that might have been a mistake from him. He should have used that more as a distraction.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘You know, like—because, yeah, otherwise, then Henry’s army would have had to—I mean, the benefit of hindsight—Henry’s army would have had to split.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘But this way, they’re just all bundled in Cornwall.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Well, yeah. And, you know, obviously—’
Anna Morris: ‘Silly Henry.’
Artie Mead: ‘Silly. No, you mean Silly Perkins.’
Anna Morris: ‘Silly Perkins.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Silly Perkins.’
Anna Morris: ‘Silly Perkins.’
Artie Mead: ‘Silly Perkins Warbeck. So he was then, yeah, captured by Henry VII’s forces and then executed in 1499. And that obviously then eliminated the threat that he posed to Henry VII’s reign. But it’s crazy how much trouble this cloth merchant from Flanders caused the King of England.’
Anna Morris: ‘Flanders has always been—when I say always, maybe, I mean, not now—but historically, Flanders was always a hot pocket in Europe for rebellion.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘So we see this throughout history. You get a lot of exiled individuals who find a home in Flanders. You have this with Guy Fawkes. You have this, you know, with Perkins. You have also a very radical way of thinking in the lowlands, like Erasmus and all these, you know, new ideologies. And it’s kind of the place of solace for rebellion.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘So, it makes sense.’
Artie Mead: ‘It does make sense.’
Anna Morris: ‘It makes sense that our boy Warby would—’
Artie Mead: ‘Warbalina.’
Anna Morris: ‘Warbalina. But obviously, the suppression of both Warbeck’s invasion and the Cornish Rebellion actually solidified Henry VII’s position on the throne. And so, the Scottish Treaty of Eton led to the marriage of Henry VII’s daughter, Margaret Tudor, to James IV in 1503. So that further cemented peace between England and Scotland.’
Anna Morris: ‘In this whole period, there’s a lot of tension always on the Scottish border.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘And Henry VII is clever. This kind of leaks into his international policy. And, you know, rather—it was very much the trend of these, you know, medieval kings to gain glory by international military success.
Artie Mead: ‘Well, military campaigns.’
Anna Morris: ‘And military campaigns. And Henry VII was, you know, maybe ahead of his time—this idea of stabilization through peace. You know, we see his opposition being crushed. We see his financial gain from huge taxations placed on—’
Artie Mead: ‘He merged those two as well. He wanted people to know that he was their king, so he stamped himself on coinage coming out of the mint. So, not just his head, which was traditional—him on his throne.’
Anna Morris: ‘I didn’t know that.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. It was a whole picture of him on his throne with the crown and the stro and everything.’
Anna Morris: ‘That’s incredible. To be able to like ink that into a—’
Artie Mead: ‘I know. Well, not ink—stamp.’
Anna Morris: ‘Stamp. Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘On a coin?’
Anna Morris: ‘On a coin, yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘On coinage.’
Anna Morris: ‘There’s a big coin.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘There’s stro and everything.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘The huge crown.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘No, but it’s kind of crazy that they could do that back then.’
Artie Mead: ‘I know. It’s incredible. It’s honestly like when I think—I mean, I always think this is mad what they built in those days, like even the Tower of London is—’
Anna Morris: ‘Which was from the 11th century.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘And so that’s insane that they built that without—’
Artie Mead: ‘I know, without like cranes and shit. It’s crazy. So, what next?’
Anna Morris: ‘So we have rebels taken care of, finances better and better every day, heavily taxing nobles—’
Artie Mead: ‘Because he was very scrupulous with money.’
Anna Morris: ‘He was seen as very greedy. By the end—’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, greedy or—’
Anna Morris: ‘I think sensible.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, sensible. That’s the other side of the coin.’
Anna Morris: ‘I think sensible and necessary. In those days, absolutely. Seen as very greedy. But he was smart in terms of, like I said, this rise of bureaucracy in his time. You know, using the Court of Star Chamber to impose fines on nobles that committed crimes. Custom duties— there was—he kind of introduced almost the inheritance tax, to be honest with you, known as the relief.’
Artie Mead: ‘But basically, yeah, so him declaring himself king a day early—a day earlier than he did actually become king, it allowed him to also strip lands off various nobles. And actually, he then became the biggest landowner in England. So he obviously got all of the income from that land. So that’s how he helped basically build up the English coffers—the English treasury. And he actually was very meticulous in keeping financial records. He actually kept them himself.’
Anna Morris: ‘Everything himself.’
Artie Mead: ‘Everything himself.’
Anna Morris: ‘This is what I find—This is why I’m so impressed by Henry VII as a monarch for that era. Because while all of the other kings constantly—’
Artie Mead: ‘They’re interested in military glory—’
Anna Morris: ‘And then even the money they make, they spend it on, like, they’re so elaborate, and they’re so extra. Whereas Henry VII is definitely more—he’s, you know, he’s more… But the fact he does all the paperwork—he actually changed his royal signature several times to avoid fraud.’
Artie Mead: ‘Wow. God, that’s very forward-thinking.’
Anna Morris: ‘It’s very forward-thinking. This is the thing—I think he’s like the father of modern-day bureaucracy as we know it in England.’
Artie Mead: ‘Maybe not in Germany; that’s a whole different kettle of fish.’
Anna Morris: ‘No. Germany’s bureaucracy goes back in time.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, it goes back in time.’
Anna Morris: ‘Our bureaucracy is like 1906.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. He also taxes commoners as well—people who’ve committed crimes and stuff—fining them. And so that’s actually part of the reason why a lot of people don’t like him. That’s why he gets either the reputation of greedy, or, you know, some people then say just meticulous with money.’
Anna Morris: ‘But it’s interesting because, you know, this actually, in the end, benefited England hugely. And, you know, on top of this, he was very smart with the marriages he set up for his children.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, this is also where his foreign policy comes in as well.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. So if we start on foreign policy, like I said before, after all these years of civil war, England had definitely lost the respect of the other countries. You have to remember, there’d been a huge breakdown of communication, relationships, and trade with England during the Hundred Years’ War and during the Wars of the Roses. And Henry realised the importance of a good foreign policy and healthy trade. So his position was poor and insecure. So what does he do? We obviously did speak about his invasion to France in 1491. Now, this ended actually quite well with the Treaty of Étaples.’
Artie Mead: ‘Étaples.’
Anna Morris: ‘Étaples. That’s how you say it. Étaples. Okay, Artie’s French comes in.’
Artie Mead: ‘Étaples.’
Anna Morris: ‘Étaples.’
Artie Mead: ‘Treaty of Étaples.’
Anna Morris: ‘Because basically—’
Artie Mead: ‘With Charles VIII of France.’
Anna Morris: ‘What Henry realised in his rule—which, again, very, very rare of a monarch to realise this, that peace is cheaper than war, people. This goes for today as well. Peace is better and certainly a lot cheaper than war. So, what does he do? One, marries off his daughter, Margaret, to James IV—we’ve already said, sorts out the problem on that border. Then,1991—’
Artie Mead: ‘1991?’
Artie Mead: ‘1491.’
Anna Morris: ‘Wow.’
Artie Mead: ‘Okay, only 33 years ago. Wow, I didn’t realise that.’
Anna Morris: ‘1491, we see a very short invasion of France, which ends with the Treaty of—’
Artie Mead: ‘Étaples.’
Anna Morris: ‘Étaples. And also—this is really dodgy—but he promised his daughter to the French Dauphin. Now, his daughter Mary—’
Artie Mead: ‘Which is the heir to the French throne—’
Anna Morris: ‘I think his daughter Mary at the time was about 12. And the Dauphin—’
Artie Mead: ‘Dauphin.’
Anna Morris: ‘Dauphin, the heir in France, that means heir in French—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, it’s the heir.’
Anna Morris: ‘He was three times her age. Four times her age.’
Artie Mead: ‘Great. Yeah, but that was normal back then.’
Anna Morris: ‘I mean, it was normal, but poor Mary.’
Artie Mead: ‘I know.’
Anna Morris: ‘Poor Mary. So Margie’s in Scotland.
Artie Mead: ‘Margie’s in Scotland.’
Anna Morris: ‘Mary is in France. And in 1501, his son Arthur—’
Artie Mead: ‘So, Henry’s son.’
Anna Morris: ‘Henry’s son, Arthur, is married or promised to Catherine of Aragon, thus establishing peace with Spain.’
Artie Mead: ‘Spain at that point, obviously—’
Anna Morris: ‘Spain , massive power.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Becoming the biggest power group.’
Anna Morris: ‘They have extended their power to South and Central America. They are doing a fantastic job in terms of overseas exploration. It is ruled by Ferdinand of Spain, father of Catherine of Aragon. Catherine of Aragon is married to Arthur. Number one, Henry VII gets an enormous dowry from Spain.
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. But at first, they were reluctant—’
Anna Morris: ‘They were reluctant because of all of Henry VII enemy. Now, it’s in Ferdinand of Spain’s interest to make sure that Henry is supported in terms of dealing with any kind of opposition. But also, this is hugely symbolic for Henry VII—to have an international power like Ferdinand of Spain, recognise Henry’s legitimacy as king. This is honestly the best thing ever for Henry in terms of gaining respect as a monarch across Europe, and, of course, internally as well.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. And so, everything is set up to unite these two countries against France. That was the idea.’
Anna Morris: ‘So the thing is, in 1501, the marriage of Catherine of Aragon and Arthur takes place. However, in 1502, Arthur, the heir, the oldest son, sadly dies—’
Artie Mead: ‘Of English sweating disease, which we don’t actually know what it really was caused by. All we knew is that it is contagious—highly contagious. You suffer headaches, extreme thirst.
Anna Morris: ‘Artie is now going to go into, you know, look out for these symptoms, guys.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly.’ ‘
Anna Morris: ‘To all our listeners who experience—’
Artie Mead: ‘Headaches, extreme thirst. So, yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Anyway, chaos. What does Henry VII do straight away? Priority—marry Catherine of Aragon to his second eldest son to keep those good relations with Spain. They had to get a special papal dispensation.’
Artie Mead: ‘Which will then become relevant in the next episode.’
Anna Morris: ‘Very significant. So bear in mind that there had to be a special papal allowance to allow Henry VIII to even marry Catherine of Aragon at first.’
Artie Mead: ‘He was the spare at that point. But then, obviously, with the death of Arthur, he then became the heir to the throne.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. So, we already had to go to all this trouble for the marriage of Catherine of Aragon and Henry VIII to take place.’
Artie Mead: ‘But Henry VII was desperate to keep the alliance.’
Anna Morris: ‘Ofcourse. Absolutely. And you can see why. I mean, it’s worked hugely in his favour. But actually, so what we have is—he also signed a treaty of peace in 1499 with Scotland, and this also reduced the French influence in Scotland because there’s something called the “Auld Agreement,” which is a classic—basically, Scotland and France have always been on the same team against England. They have an “Auld,” spelt A-U-L-D. And I think even to this day, it holds that they are natural allies. So Scotland and France are natural allies and always have been for hundreds and hundreds of years, probably united in their mutual distaste for England.
And so, this obviously weakens the French influence in Scotland. And Mary marries Louis the Dauphin. And there we go. We have international policy of peace—saving money, actually getting money from certain marriage treaties. All his borders are secure, if you count the channel’s border. Border secure, opposition has been squashed, and finances are looking a lot better also because of a huge increase in trade due to his peace can now tend to—Treaties were encouraged with the Italian states—’
Artie Mead: ‘And he put on customs duties to raise money to goods coming into England.’
Anna Morris: ‘Again, very modern.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. However, Henry was pretty devastated by the death of his son. But then a year later, in 1503, his, by that point, beloved wife, Elizabeth, died as well. And this really devastated him and he shut himself away for several days. And he actually, after this, became a lot more hardened, and a lot more autocratic, and also a lot more stingy with money.’
Anna Morris: ‘So I think that, you know, Henry VII is definitely painted out to be unattractive, hard-hearted, very crafty, and rather greedy. However, if you think about what he set out to do, he actually managed to do it all. Even, you know—just as a fun fact, because I did a module in overseas exploration—in 1497, he actually funded John and Sebastian Cabot’s excursion to the new lands. And that is when they found Canada—Newfoundland, an original name.
Artie Mead: ‘I know.’
Anna Morris: ‘And this paid off, and that also made him incredibly wealthy. So, if you think about what makes a country look good, England after this time is kind of catching up with Spain, you know.
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And it was Henry VII who really—’
Artie Mead: ‘And it was Henry VII who did this.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. And so—yeah, we see his success can definitely be summed up with the important fact of when he dies. They have money, they have international security, they have—’
Artie Mead: ‘Stability.’
Anna Morris: ‘Domestic stability, they’ve also shown a flair for overseas exploration, international trade, security of the throne, children married off to various European monarchs. And I think, yeah, I mean, I personally would argue that he did a really really good job.’
Artie Mead: ‘In terms of being a monarch, he was pretty high up there, but yeah, he’s not well known because, there wasn’t a lot of—’
Anna Morris: ‘He’s called the forgotten Tudor.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And the reason is—’
Anna Morris: ‘And I think it’s a real shame.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Because there—well, I think it’s just because there wasn’t much kind of scandal and drama.’
Anna Morris: ‘I know.’
Artie Mead: ‘But he was the one who was responsible for basically stabilizing England and was crucial in transitioning England from this period of civil strife to one of relative stability, and obviously then setting the stage for the various successes and dramas of the Tudor era. But then he eventually, in 1509, fell ill with tuberculosis and died on the 21st of April that year.’
Anna Morris: ‘So what do you think of Henry VII now, Artie?’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, and by the way, he was buried in Westminster Abbey along with his beloved wife, and you can still see his tomb today.’
Anna Morris: ‘In 10 seconds, Artie, what are your thoughts on Henry VII? Go!’
Artie Mead: ‘I think he, yeah, is definitely a forgotten monarch, but after studying up about him, I have to say I think he was a very capable monarch.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yes, perfect. Sounds good.’
Artie Mead: And what about you? Quickfire, go!
Anna Morris: ‘He—’
Artie Mead: Come on! Okay, time’s up.
Anna Morris: ‘Actually, fantastic.’ ‘
Artie Mead: ‘Okay, right.’
Anna Morris: ‘I think he’s my favourite.’
Artie Mead: ‘Go.’
Anna Morris: ‘I think he reflects actually a really modern, forward way of thinking. I think he made it possible for what happens next to happen because that couldn’t have happened without all this money and stability. And I think he set out with a plan, and I think he actually managed to complete everything. I can’t think of one more thing he could have done, although he is kind of seen—and he was quite—you know, he did have various gangster methods. But yeah, I think he was a bit of a badass, personally.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. I think—well, I don’t think he was a badass, but I think he was just—yeah, he was a very capable monarch. And the only proof you need is the state of England when he came to the throne and, yeah, before and after, people.’
Anna Morris: ‘I think he was a really good monarch. But yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Okay, well, I guess that’s kind of everything on Henry VII. Do you have anything else you want to add?’
Anna Morris: ‘No, but I think we are all excited for what is to come next!’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, in the next episode, we’re going to be talking about definitely the most famous Tudor monarch, and I would say probably the most famous monarch in English history.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘That is, of course, Henry VIII. And we’re going to be having quite a few episodes on him because he had a long reign and there were quite a lot of important events that happened during his reign, you know, such as—’
Anna Morris: ‘Shapes are, you know, the way it is today.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. Obviously, he have his six wives, which I think is what he’s most famous for. But, obviously—yeah, exactly. But you have very tangible—things that are very tangible today on the constitution of Britain and these big historical events that are super interesting and had real impacts on England and on Britain.’
Anna Morris: ‘More on that later.’
Artie Mead: ‘But yes, more on that next time. Thank you very much for listening, guys. Please don’t forget to subscribe, like, leave reviews on your streaming platform, on YouTube, on whatever. Yeah, see you next time when we will be talking about the most famous monarch in British history. So yeah, over and out.’