Ayrton Senna: The Story of a Brazilian Sporting Hero (with Bruno Ferrari)
Artie Mead: ‘Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The History Buff with me, Artie, your Berlin tour guide. But, as some of you know, I’m travelling around South America, and I’m currently in São Paulo, Brazil. I’m going to do an episode today about a Brazilian national hero called Ayrton Senna. Now, a lot of people don’t know who that is, especially people from my generation and below. So my aim with this episode is to try and enlighten you, because he is a very important figure here in Brazil. And the reason I’m doing this episode is because, we’re recording this before, but today, the 1st of May—when this episode will be released, 1st of May 2024—is the 30th anniversary of Ayrton Senna’s death. So, I am doing this basically as a sort of in memoriam of Senna, because it’s been 30 years now since he died very suddenly during the San Marino Grand Prix on the 1st of May 1994. So for this discussion, I am joined by a fellow history buff and actually a fellow tour guide, who I’ve just had a wonderful tour with here in São Paulo, Bruno.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Thank you, Artie. Well, it’s a pleasure, you know, to have you in São Paulo. At the same time, you know, like you mentioned, our intention—hopefully for the new generation—people to know.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘But we can say Ayrton Senna is like a national hero in Brazil, especially because he had this big period from the, let’s say, beginning exactly in 1984 until 1994, when he passed away. We thought we had 10 years of, you know, wonderful years. Ayrton Senna getting, like, 46 Grand Prix races, had 65 pole positions.’
Artie Mead: ‘And that’s the thing. For those of you who don’t know, Ayrton—as it’s pronounced in English, but in Brazilian Portuguese, Ayrton. He was a Formula One driver, considered one of the best in history. And he was known for his speed. He was known for his pretty ruthless tactics. And he, you know, his main motivation was to win. And when he did—a lot. He went on to win world championships in 1988, 1990, and 1991. Now, I’m actually doing this episode because my dad is a huge, huge fan of Senna, and they actually have birthdays very close together—born in the same year, in 1960. And so, Dad, this episode is for you. I guess let’s start, first of all, with his early life. So, Ayrton Senna da Silva was born on the 21st of March 1960 to a, let’s say, upper-middle-class family, right?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, from São Paulo.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And so, his parents were Milton and Neyde?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Neyde.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, Milton and Neyde da Silva.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes. I mean, his mother was of Italian descent.’
Artie Mead: ‘Italian descent. Right. And the funny thing is that when he became famous, he decided to take just his mother’s name.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, because the thing, “da Silva” in English, you know, it’s quite common and sounds strange. So, it was much harder to pronounce “da Silva” than say “Senna,” so it was kind of a more commercial. Much easier way to be recognised.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. So, he had, you know, a pretty good childhood. Um, he was very close with his family. As we said, he was born into an upper-middle-class family, so he did come from money and had an advantage. And he got into racing pretty young, starting off with go-karting, I believe. And he was found to be very good at it. His father was also, I think, into racing, wasn’t he?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘No, not exactly, but he was a terrible fan of car racing.’
Artie Mead: ‘Right.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘So, we can say his father introduced Senna to the car world.’
Artie Mead: ‘But Milton had a metallic business?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, metallic English company.’
Artie Mead: ‘Which, I think, he originally wanted Senna to do because Senna was the eldest son?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, he was the eldest son. He had two siblings—one sister and one brother.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. So, he had Leonardo, his younger brother, and Viviane, who was also younger.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘Cool. So, he discovers this passion for driving, and he is found to be very good at it. So, he manages to get the backing of his family, who see that he has talent, and they basically give him enough money to move to England in the early 1980s to kind of, I guess, pursue the career. And whilst he’s there, he actually moves with his high school sweetheart, doesn’t, doesn’t he? Her name was Lilian Vasconcelos Souza.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah. She was his official wife.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, wife, because they were married. And so, bearing in mind he was very young at this point. He was only, I think, 20, 21 when he moved to, when he moved to England. And so, married her straight out of school. They moved to England. Now, Senna, he’s there because he knows that if he wants to move up in the world of racing, that Europe is the place to be, and that’s why he moves to England. However, he hates the cold, and also, so does his wife. They basically move to England and not actually really knowing much English. And, I think Lilian really, really never, kind of, gets used to life in England, and this I think drives them apart. And eventually in I think 1981, they divorce.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘So he starts off with Formula Ford, which is kind of the entry-level racing. He’s found to be very good, wins a lot of races. Then he goes, moves up into Formula Three, which is kind of the next step and also found to be very good and then he starts off with Formula One in 1984 with Toleman, first of all. Okay, so that’s his first kind of foray into Formula One. Now, I don’t know if he was—he started off being.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, he was, at that time, you know, when he got this contract with Toleman, he tested for McLaren as well for Williams, but at that time there was no vacancy for him. So then he decides to cut his contract with Toleman.’
Artie Mead: ‘Right. And then go to Lotus.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘Which he was with from 1985 until 1987. And it’s really here that I think he starts to make a name for himself. Here is this, quite sort of, well, very young, first of all, but also he was known to be quite sort of softly spoken. You know, he had very—I was reading in this book earlier, very kind of peaceful eyes. That, I have to say—what me—just as a side note, when I was reading up about him and watching documentaries about him, there’s something about Senna himself and his way of being that made me feel very emotional because he was very emotional as a person.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, he was. He was a very great personality, and he was—I mean, we can say like we were commenting this morning, you know, he was like a sportsman, totally dedicated. But when we compare with other sports people, sports famous people, you know, and you consider his personality, his behaviour. So I can—I mean, in my opinion, he’s one of the greatest figures.’
Artie Mead: ‘And would you say that he rivals Pelé in that regard?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Well, Pelé is the most famous football player in Brazil.’
Artie Mead: ‘But he was quite a controversial figure.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, his life in many aspects has been, you know, has been very controversial.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, whereas Senna not so much.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘He’s considered like a, you know, a full-blown natural hero, but his personal life in some aspects is not. I mean, that’s the best way to say, you know.’
Artie Mead: ‘There were quite a few controversial aspects to live.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Ayrton Senna, I mean, we can say—there are people that are thinking, that would say that Ayrton Senna would be a saint.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And I mean—but the thing is though, from what I have read about Senna, it’s part of the reason that Brazilians loved him so much and idolised him so much, was because he never forgot where he came from.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, in some way.’
Artie Mead: ‘And he—and even though he moved up to the top of Formula One, eventually, you know, he would always, you know, when he won a race, he would always fly the Brazilian flag, you know, and it brought tears to his eyes to see the Brazilian flag raised when he was on the podium, you know, when he won a race to hear the Brazilian anthem being played. I think the first time he won a Formula One race, that really was—you could see in his face quite how emotional he was.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘And it’s really what I think it was part of putting Brazil on the world stage.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, exactly. He was, you know, deeply proud to be Brazilian. At the same time, I remember in the nineties, eighties to the nineties when every Brazilian family had their homes, especially on Sunday when they were having the last race in circuit in different parts of the world, the people were always watching on to be, “What is going to be of Senna?” Everybody was just—’
Artie Mead: ‘It was a unified thing.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘And then—like we were commenting this morning, I remember at the eighties Brazil, we used to have a lot of inflation, our poorest layers of society were suffering so much.’
Artie Mead: ‘So this is like towards the end of the eighties, right?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘And so, during these really tough times in Brazil where people were suffering economically, you know, the races that Senna—Senna raced in—what? Senna was doing was something that, you know, got every Brazilian excited. Those in the favelas all the way up to luxury apartments in central Sao Paulo.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes. Gave us the distinction to be proud to be Brazilian.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly, exactly.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘In the same time to be represented by him because he was an amazing personality, you know.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, he goes off to drive with Lotus in 1985, which is, you know, a fairly well-respected team in Formula One. And it’s really here that he kind of makes a name for himself. This is when he really starts to become very famous and he gets a name for himself because he, I think, is—he’s very good at driving in wet weather. Wet weather is his, I think—’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, exactly. Oh, by the way, now that you mentioned it, I was reading about his John H., when his—he was, I mean training with his own car, not exactly a Formula One car, but when it was just like, say 16, 17 years old, 18 years old, his father used to take him with a car to practise in a wet road.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, yeah, yeah.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Is when he—this developed, this kind of ability to drive in wet conditions.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. But also, you have to also mention that, you know, he was very ruthless in his determination to win. And so he had, let’s say, tactics that came from that determination. And the thing is, that determination caught the eye of the most famous team of that time, which was McLaren. So he is moving up Formula One, and in 1986, he signs with McLaren. Okay, which at that time was considered the sort of top teams. And he goes to join the sort of best racer of the time, which is Alain Prost, who is a French Formula One driver. And the thing is, the rivalry between those two, probably the most iconic rivalry of Formula One.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, yes, for sure. For sure. Everybody agrees. It was the most emotional, most fantastic, you know, car race.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, basically, they—So they were, I think they started off on fairly good terms because like Senna said, he said he had—he didn’t have idols. He just respected, you know, determination and all that kind of stuff. And so, I think he did that with Prost. And the thing is, I think Prost has, by that point, won, I think, two or three world titles. And, basically, Senna actually ends up winning his first world championship in 1988. Okay? Now, the rivalry with Prost, I think, heats up after he wins his first world championship. Now, when he wins his first world championship, Senna, in 1988, obviously, Brazilians go wild because this is the first time that a Brazilian, I think, I don’t know.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘We already had.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh you did.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, okay.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘They were already, you know, world champions.’
Artie Mead: ‘Okay. Well, so another Brazilian winning a world championship, but obviously still Brazilians go mad. And it, I think it sort of cements his icon status in Brazil. And so he comes home, he gets a hero’s welcome and he spends a lot of time in Brazil. He builds a new farm for his—because obviously, by this point, he’s starting to earn quite a lot of money. Yeah. He’s earning a lot of money with McLaren and obviously, especially after 1986. And what’s funny is that his father, after his, I think, first one not two seasons, had said, “No, I’m not going to fund this anymore because you’re not making any money.” And so—but then, eventually, it was because he wanted him to obviously come back and take over the family business in Brazil, but he managed to set and managed to get his father to back him for another season. And then that was then what then led him to then go to Lotus and then he went on upwards from there, basically. So, after that, obviously, he gets loads of sponsorship, and I think he gets his main sponsor, which sponsors him for the rest of his life, which was, I think, Nacional?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Banco Nacional, which is, today is not anymore, but it was one of the biggest banks that we used to have.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, which was on his helmet.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, no, no. He always wore the caps.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘The cap, yeah. Was a blue cap.’
Artie Mead: ‘Blue cap. Yeah, his iconic blue caps. Yeah. So after he wins the 1988 World Championship, the rivalry with Prost, I think, really heats up. And in 1989, the two who are basically in contention for the world championship are Prost and Senna. And bearing in mind, Prost is quite a bit older than. Alain Prost was five years older. And you can imagine after, you know, already winning a couple of championships, and you know, this kind of new kid coming on the block, you know, you would feel threatened. So, I can kind of understand where Prost was coming from. But basically, yeah, in Japan that year, they were driving around a bend and basically Senna cut Prost off, and I think forced Prost to retire. Senna then finished the race. He won the race, but he was disqualified, wasn’t he?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah. Yeah. And the rules of the FIA at that time.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. And so, he basically handed the championship to him.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘It was a big controversial, you know, because at that time the president of FIA was a Frenchman.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. Yeah, because the head of FISA, which was governing body of Formula One, he was French. Jean, what’s his name? Jean-Marie or something.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘I don’t remember exactly now.’
Artie Mead: ‘Jean-Marie Balestre. Yeah. So Jean-Marie Balestre, he was the head of the governing body for Formula One. And obviously, him being French, I think, to be honest, did a lot of—’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Keep an extra hand.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. Well, I mean, I think probably had Prost’s interests at heart more than Senna’s. Although, I mean, to the naked eye, what Senna did in 1989 in Japan, it did look not legitimate. Because, you know, he did, like, cut him off and stop him from—because then he goes through a shortcut, I think, and that’s what disqualified him, I think, and he got an illegal post start. So, he doesn’t win the 1989 World Championship, and then in 1990, there is another incident, okay, I can’t remember which, where it was, but basically, I think it might have actually been Japan again as well, actually. But they—I think it’s on the first lap, they basically hit against each other and both spin off.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Both spin off. Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. They spin off the track and this hands the championship to Senna. So even though they both are out of the race, Senna has so many points now from the whole competition that he has now won the world championship. So, Senna wins his second world championship in 1990. So, obviously, this just kind of cements his status as, you know, one of the best or the best driver in the world at that point. Although to this day, I did read, a lot of people believe that he should have been stripped of the title in 1990 because a lot of people believed, probably especially Prost fans, believed that he did it on purpose, as in cut him off. Yes. Now, before we go on to when he moved to his final team, I just want to talk a little bit about how he was as a person. I mean, we touched on it a bit earlier, but yeah, I mean, from what I’ve read and what I’ve seen in documentaries, he does come off as quite sort of shy, quite reserved. But also just very emotional, you know. Whenever there was an accident during a race, or maybe, you know, he was—there was one race, I remember, where someone crashed, and he got out of his car and immediately went.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘So that shows—
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Risking his life.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, risking his life when other cars were going around. And the thing is, that shows a level of compassion. Which despite the fact that Senna was very ruthless in his pursuit of winning, he did still have this compassion, which I think, to be honest, most F1 drivers don’t.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘Now, he was often vilified by the media because of his tactics, because, as I said, he was quite ruthless in his determination to win. But you know that determination to win did work.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘We can say as well that he was very disciplined, you know, focusing on what he wanted. And in all his career since the very beginning, exercising, keeping the right times, working very hard. Sometimes like he’s running, I don’t know, kilometres.
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, very disciplined.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Very disciplined.’
Artie Mead: ‘He was very physically fit as well. Now—And, you know, this determination helped him win 41 Grand Prix’s and three world titles. So, you know, he was a very dedicated figure, dedicated to winning, basically. And it’s just sad to think, really, because eventually he would end up going on to die in an accident at the San Marino Grand Prix in 1994, in the prime of his life. And, you know, it’s—you know, you just wonder maybe what he would’ve—because his dream, I think, was to go to Ferrari. Ferrari because that was the kind of ultimate.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, exactly. It was the top of the time.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. So, you know, he was taken from us in his prime. And I think that also the ultimate sort of—I think part of the reason why people miss him, especially in Brazil, is because he was so proud of being Brazilian, but also because he was this compassionate man, very emotional, wore his emotions on his sleeve, showed his heart on his sleeve. He didn’t have a problem getting angry, getting upset, crying during an interview. And I think that’s something that I—I think that’s what endeared a lot of people to him was the fact that he showed his emotions so much. And like I said earlier, like, I dunno, there’s just something about his—those peaceful eyes. I can’t remember the word was but those, sort of, peaceful eyes that just, sort of, seem to have all this compassion and things behind it. And it just, you know, it does—it made me—it just makes me feel emotional sort of seeing him.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘I can say as well that today, you know, it’s going to be 30 years since he’s passed away.
‘Artie Mead: ‘Exactly.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘And it’s still, especially for the people who were like, let’s say, teenagers, adults in the 80s and 90s, that had seen his career, he is well remembered in the whole country. He is like a saint.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Like a hero because he was a great personality, a humble person. He made a lot. As you know, he donated part of his fortune, more than 400 American dollars, you know.’
Artie Mead: ‘400 million, you mean.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘400 million American dollars.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, yeah. So he donated. So, yeah, he did a lot of charity work, and I think this is also something that really endeared him to Brazilians, was the fact that he—something that I don’t think he ever told people about.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘No, no, no. Yeah, even their family didn’t know that he did a lot of this.’
Artie Mead: ‘He did a sheer amount of money.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘The charity money. He gave a lot of donations without nobody knowing it.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. So, 400 million US dollars he gave in charity during his lifetime. That’s not afterwards, because also, even after his death, there’s been the institution set up by his sister, I believe?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, yes, yes. We have the Ayrton Senna Institution.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, which aims to basically educate children.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, exactly. To give support, education to poor children in the country.’
Artie Mead: ‘But whilst he was alive, he funded hospitals, he funded buildings, houses, all of this kind of stuff. So he did—’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah. By the way, the foundation was already founded when he was alive.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, it was. Okay. Right.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah. So I think it was two years before he passed away. I think so.’
Artie Mead: ‘Right. So, I mean, that already legitimately would make someone a hero in the eyes of his countrymen, really.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘For example, today we can see a lot of things, people like, you know, car racers or football players and all these famous people. So, sometimes they spend money buying a yacht or a big mansion or, you know, this kind of tour of the Mediterranean with a lot of women. But Ayrton Senna was a totally different personality.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, no, I mean, the thing is, though, he did still live the rich life. He had a helicopter, he had a private jet, he blah, blah, blah, did all of this stuff. But he acknowledged that there were loads of problems back in his home country, but he did also try and do things to help fix it.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘And that’s what —’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah. He’s had his luxury, you know, things to start, but yes, he did it in a kind of very, you know, simple way.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. So now his private life, he was quite a private person. And he obviously had his wife, Lillian Vasconcelos Souza. But then he also dated quite a few other people. There were quite a few. I think he did have quite a few more girlfriends than I’ve got listed down here, but only quite short, I think. The major ones were Zuza Menigel.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Suzan Meninggal .’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Who was a famous—’
Artie Mead: ‘Television presenter. Yeah. Blonde, and I think did a lot of kids’ shows.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah. Yes. She—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, Queen of children.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘And they had a relationship, I think it was 1986 to 1988 or something like that. Anyway, but it didn’t last because their schedules were—’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Exactly. Yeah. He’s got so many, you know, activities that separated them.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. And so then, eventually, he starts a relationship in 1993, I believe, with Adriane Galisteu.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Adriane Galisteu.’
Artie Mead: ‘Adriane Galisteu, who is blonde, blue-eyed, and a model from— also from São Paulo.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘And she is 14 years his junior, or actually a fair bit his junior. And they start going out because she actually is working at a Grand Prix event. He sees her there. And then that starts the relationship. Now, his relationship with his family was extraordinarily close.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes’
Artie Mead: ‘Wasn’t it? Although I think that’s the norm in Brazil. Something I found in Brazil with all my Brazilian friends is that they do—’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, we’re very close to our families. Yes, we are very family-orientated. We’re very close to our families. And Ayrton Senna, he was, I mean, one of his main things in life was his family. For example, doing this international car racing circuit, but always getting back to Brazil to visit his mother, his family. You know, he used to have a house on one of the beautiful beaches in São Paulo, where he would gather all the family.’
Artie Mead: ‘And he built a farm for them, for them all to use. And so, yeah, he really loved his family. And also he was very devout. He believed in God, and I don’t think he mentioned it quite so much earlier on in his career, but I think as he started to win more and more titles, he would explain those titles by his faith in God.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘And I think that weirded out some people. Prost didn’t like it. And by the way, the Prost rivalry didn’t end very well because it actually ended in Prost leaving McLaren to go and race for Williams Renault because he said, “I can’t race with Senna anymore. I cannot be on the same team with Senna. So that does kind of give you an impression of the kind of teammate Senna was. Because the thing is, at the end of the day, Senna was in it for himself, to win. Because even though what we’re talking about is this, you know, lovely, emotional, caring, compassionate man, who you can even see in his deep brown eyes, that he was this compassionate man who loved his country and wanted to improve his country and all of this kind of stuff. As soon as he got into that car, he was ruthless and would do anything to win. But that’s what you had to do in Formula One.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, exactly. He was like a machine, you know, produced to win. This was his main purpose. Therefore, he was good. Therefore, people loved it.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, and also, if you wanted to keep the sponsors and stay on the good teams, you had to win.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah. He gave, you know, to Formula One, the emotional feeling, you know. Everybody wanted to see Ayrton Senna.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. And in 1993, he was going to take a sabbatical because he had been with McLaren by that point since 1986. He had three world titles, and it didn’t happen in 1992 or 1993. So actually then—sorry, no. In 1994, he was going to take, I think, a sabbatical, but then he signs a contract extension with McLaren, does another year with McLaren, doesn’t win. And I think he does actually contemplate quitting. And because by this point he’s actually started various businesses in São Paulo. And, you know, he’s got his signature S, the red S, which are based on the bends at the Interlagos.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, by the way, that year I think he brought Audi. You know, the Audi cars, the German cars. He opened the first imported Audi cars dealership in Brazil.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, okay. Right.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, it was during that period.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, he was working on the sort of Senna brand. He basically, I think, had one eye on life after racing, basically. Because he knew that obviously he probably wasn’t going to be doing this forever. And so, he was building his brand. And if you know the Senna S, it’s this sort of double red S, which is based on a curve at the Interlagos.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Interlagos.’
Artie Mead: ‘Where we’ve ben today. Yes, exactly. Which is the Formula One, the Grand Prix circuit here in São Paulo. So then, he goes to race for Williams Renault in 1994. Okay. Now, this actually infuriates Prost because Prost is at Williams Renault and he specifically had in his contract a no-Senna clause. And he said, “If Senna comes to this team, I’m leaving. This contract is null and void. Now, luckily for Prost, he won the 1993 world championship. So he had four championships. So he was like, “Okay, I’m done. I’m gone. So you can have Senna. Bye.” Leaves. And so, Senna joins. And the thing is, the 1994 season, it gets off to a bit of a shaky start because the governing body bans driving aids.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘Which, looking back on it now, were quite important.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, yeah. They wanted, you know, to be more—’
Artie Mead: ‘Competitive?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Competitive. Yeah. Faster.’
Artie Mead: ‘So basically, things such as I think things, like, sort of, automatic steering, ymaking the brakes more efficient and all of this kind of stuff. They basically banned onboard computers essentially. And so, this makes Senna quite nervous. And on top of that nervousness, he is going to race with a new company because, you know—I mean, Senna’s iconic jumpsuit is the red one, which is McLaren, you know, sponsored by Marlboro, which is funny to think of today because, you know, tobacco companies are no longer allowed to sponsor. Yeah. But he goes off. Yes. Because he can see that Williams Renault’s star is rising, and he knows that they produce the best cars. So starts out the year, and it’s okay. And I think he has an okay season, but then we come to the fateful day at Imola, the San Marino Grand Prix in April-May 1994. Now, at this Grand Prix, during the testing, on the 29th of April, another driver, Roland Ratzenberger, is killed. Okay, and Senna actually goes to see the crash site. And he realizes that actually it’s, you know, because I think, was Ratzenberger also on the Tamburello curve? I actually am not sure if it was on the Tamburello curve as well. But anyway, the Imola circuit is known for being pretty dangerous. And Senna is known to have voiced his opinion on a very dangerous part of it called the Tamburello curve. Saying, we need to make this more safe. This is going to lead to an accident, blah, blah, blah. So, Ratzenberger dies on the 29th of April, and this is during testing, not during the actual race, and it kind of casts a shadow, I think. And kind of, I think, adds to the tense, tenseness of the situation for Senna because, as I said, he’s in this new car with a new team without computer aids.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, yeah. So we remember, we remember when we—I mean, he started—I mean, on Sunday, his last day, you know, he was, he was not the normal Ayrton Senna.
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘His eyes, you know, his—the way he moved his body, he wasn’t, you know, like reckless.
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. And the thing that’s crazy is that, like, after seeing the crash, his doctor, Professor Sid Watkins, said to him, “Why don’t you quit, Senna? If you quit, I’ll quit, and we’ll go fishing. We’ll just—we both like to fish, just quit, and we’ll both go fishing.” And Senna said, “I can’t.” I don’t know if that’s to do with contractual duties—maybe it is—or it’s just because he just wanted to win. Maybe a bit of both. So, then it comes to the day of the race on the 1st of May. So, now, up until the fateful moment, he actually clocks very, very, very fast laps, and he is going really, really, really fast. And then—so, basically, on lap six of that day, on the 1st of May at Imola, the race resumed, and Senna immediately set a very quick pace with the third quickest lap of the race, followed by a young Michael Schumacher, who was kind of really sort of jostling for position with him. Now, on the seventh lap, the second lap at racing speed, Senna’s car left the racing line at the Tamburello curve and ran in a straight line off the track and struck an unprotected concrete barrier. So, I think telemetry, recovered from the wreckage of his car, it showed that he entered the corner at 192 miles an hour, so 309 kilometers per hour. So, then he basically broke very hard and changed gear twice down before impacting the wall at 130 miles an hour, so 211 kilometers per hour. And the car hit the wall at a shallow angle and tore off the right front wheel and nose cone before spinning to a halt. Now, you can actually see footage of the incident, but it’s sort of in the corner of the screen. And I mean, yeah, it must have been quite a tense moment. I mean, do you remember watching it?
Bruno Ferrari: ‘I remember, yes, we were watching it at home, but I remember that day, I was hung over. But I remember my wife waking me up and, “Oh. There was a kind of an accident.” So we, we saw it, you know, because—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Because then, he was basically immediately, I think, removed from the cockpit, and he was then put on the road, and the doctors surrounded him. They could already tell that something was very wrong, even the commentators in the Globo box for Brazil commentating, they knew something was wrong because they could see that his legs weren’t moving.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Exactly. He was taken, you know, by helicopter to the hospital. And they said, “No, he’s still alive.”’
Artie Mead: ‘I think it’s even before then. So Professor Sid Watkins, who is basically, I think, his personal doctor. He came and found that his forehead was basically completely destroyed.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah. Everybody agreed that he died at that moment.’
Artie Mead: ‘At that moment, yeah, because I think it, because what happened was, was a bit of suspension, I think, flew off from the front car. And cut his helmet. And cut into his helmet, which, by the way, had been made slightly lighter for that race and penetrated, and if it had been six inches above or below, he probably would have survived. But it hit him just above his right eye and entered his head, and basically, when they found him, he was bleeding out, and there was also brain matter coming out of his nose.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Definitely, he was dead, but, you know, but at that time—
Artie Mead: ‘He was as good as dead.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, exactly, but the thing is, I mean, at that moment, I mean, the competition must be cancelled.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, but it carried on.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, they carried on. And then two hours later, they said, “Oh, he, he passed away.” But probably many people used to say that they wanted the competition to keep going.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. And, you know, this is obviously a really, really awful moment for the people, obviously there at Imola, but also, you know, for Senna fans around the world and also especially in Brazil. I read that on the morning of the 1st of May in Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, the streets were very quiet because obviously Brazilians were waking up to the news that a national hero, their national hero, was almost certainly dead.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, everybody was shocked. It was like a big, you know, mourning for everybody.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And that’s the thing, is that something that also made me very emotional, is just how he was—how it was people in the lowest slum to, you know, the luxury apartment in Sao Paulo. It doesn’t matter who you were. And that shows you how much of a unifying force he was in Brazil. And something that you told me earlier that he had, is that when they were searching his car, he had an Austrian flag in his car that he had planned to fly when he won—when he was going to win the San Marino Grand Prix and fly that because usually he was famous for flying the Brazilian flag, but because Roland Ratzenberger, who’s Austrian, had been killed a couple of days earlier, he was going to fly the Austrian flag. And that, for me, just encapsulates how compassionate he was.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Great personality.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. You know, and I think that just really encapsulates Senna’s personality, really. So, obviously, Brazil is devastated. The Senna fans around the world are devastated. It’s very shocking. And he is flown back to Brazil a few days later, where he is given a state funeral. And his whole family’s there, also, you know, his old rival.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘I think his body got at the International Airport in Sao Paulo, you know, like about, well, it’s estimated about three, four million people followed, you know, his funeral track until the legislative assembly of Sao Paulo, where his body was, you know, in—put in funeral. It was amazing.’
Artie Mead: ‘And when people were allowed to walk past.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah. Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Did you do that?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes. No, I didn’t. I didn’t because it was so, so many people, more than 200,000 people passed byhis body to say goodbye.
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘And I can say as well, for many, many—I mean, I think for every Brazilian family at that time, they felt like they have lost one of their sons or one of their best, you know, lovely, you know, human beings.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘So it was so shocking for the whole Brazilian society. As you mentioned, from the poorest to the highest.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And I think that’s what I find so wonderful about him and why when we were at the cemetery earlier, I think I, I got very emotional looking down at his gravestone just because like, when you go there, you see flags actually from all over the world. There was a picture of someone whose dad, from Norway, whose dad was a Senna fan, and it said their name from Norway. And then, there was a Mexican flag and then a picture of Senna at a Mexican Grand Prix. And so, that shows you that it wasn’t actually just in, in Brazil that he had reach, but all around the world. And yeah, I don’t know. It’s just— it was very touching to see and it’s not really kind of every day that you have someone like that and who was obviously just such a good person, you know, that also dies in their prime and you just wonder what maybe could have been had he not been taken from us because he was 34 when he died. So, you know, someone would argue still pretty young. And so yeah, he’s given a state funeral, he lies in state. 200,000 people walked past him, and then he’s buried at the—’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘At the Morumbi. Morumbi Cemetery, is where his body— his tomb is now.’
Artie Mead: ‘And to be buried there, you just had to be important, or you just had to pay a lot of money?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘I think it’s kind of a fancy cemetery.’
Artie Mead: ‘Right, okay, right. So, I guess, the final question, what would you say his legacy is in Brazil? Because the thing that I find a shame is that it’s just, it is quite sad that Brazilians, most Brazilians that I talked to of my generation or younger—so Millennials and Gen Zed—they sort of—they know who he is and they know that he was a great guy, but they don’t really know much about him. So you definitely think it’s definitely something more for the sort of slightly older generations.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, yes. I think, yes, probably it’s—well, it’s part of history, you know. It’s impossible to say to people, to obligate people to see or hear about Ayrton Senna. But I think for a Brazilian society in general, you know, he is still worshipped, you know, as a great personality, being one of the greatest car racers, person, and at the same time he’s a great personality. Like you mentioned his passion, his dedication, his talent, you know, everything. So, it’s going to be 30 years and I think we need to applause him as well, at the same time to embrace his great, I mean, purpose of life because he had a purpose of life.’
Artie Mead: ‘He had a purpose of life and there’s no doubt that he’s left a very significant legacy in Brazil.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘And it’s still an example for the new generations because—to be dedicated, to be disciplined, but at the same time, not to forget your family, not to forget your nationality, your real life, you know, this is it. Sometimes we get rich, sometimes we get famous. And so, you know, I think we get over, you know, famous, or yeah, sometimes we forget that word.
Artie Mead: ‘The fame goes to your head.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘And I don’t think that ever really was the case with Senna. Senna was always quite grounded and, you know, definitely I think the celebrity attention did get a bit much for him. I remember there’s a video of him in, I think, Japan. In Japan, they were obsessed with him.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, yeah. Japanese are fans.’
Artie Mead: ‘Fans. Yeah. And he—and you can see how uncomfortable he looks, but when he’s with the fans, he does his best to, like, shake hands.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Very simple. Very simple. Very humble person.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Exactly. But then when he’s behind closed doors, you can imagine that he was probably like, “Oh.” But, you know, it just shows that, you know, he was genuinely a decent person. And yeah—no, he was taken from us far too young. I mean, yeah, is that—I mean, that’s sort of really everything. Is there anything else that you would like to mention?’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Oh, yes. Well, first of all, I would like to thank you, Artie, for this beautiful day. You know, I have taken you to the—’
Artie Mead: ‘It’s been lovely. Thank you so much. Because also, we’ve seen some amazing murals. If you ever come to Sao Paulo, make sure you do a tour with Bruno here. I will put his Instagram and everything in the show notes so that you can have a look. He doesn’t just do Ayrton Senna tours. He also does general tours and all this kind of stuff. But, you know, there are lovely murals of Ayrton Senna all over the city and you can really, through that, see just how much he touched this nation and how much they love him and how much of a legacy he has.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, it is. And this is it. I thank you very much to give me the opportunity to have guided you, and at the same time to show my city. You know, Sao Paulo is a very cosmopolitan city, it has more than 22 million people. So we have a lot of creativity, like you mentioned, there’s a lot of street art. But if you like urban areas, Sao Paulo is a big dish to this party.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. Definitely.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes. And well, all my best for you. I hope to see you again in Sao Paulo.’
Artie Mead: ‘Definitely, 100%. I am in love with Brazil. I’m definitely going to be back here.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yes, yes. Come to Brazil, definitely. I think one of the—I’ve been traveling in different places around the world, but I mean, Brazilian people are unique.’
Artie Mead: ‘Definitely.’
Bruno Ferrari: ‘Yeah, Brazilian people are very easygoing, you know, people look at your eyes, always trying to help you, welcome you, embracing you. So you feel part of this society, you know.
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And I think that’s what Senna was a part of. And I think that’s why he was such a good reflection of Brazil, because he projected that on the world stage. You know, he was passionate. Yes, he got—you know, there was an instance where he got into a fight with an Irish driver because the Irish driver cut him off and he punched him. It wasn’t because Senna was a bad person. It was because Senna—he was just so motivated to win that he was angry with himself that he didn’t win. That’s the reason that he punched this driver in the face. And so, yeah.
Bruno Ferrari: ‘He was a human person. So—It could happen to anyone.’
Artie Mead: ‘But, no. He shows, you know, this Brazilian spirit of showing your emotions, which we don’t do so much in Europe. And that’s why I really look up to him. I mean, me myself, I’m not, unlike my father, at all into Formula One at all, but Senna is a very, very special person who I’m very glad I’ve got to know. And so, thank you very much for showing me around Sao Paulo and the mark that he’s left on this wonderful city.’
Bruno: ‘Thank you. Thanks to you. Thanks to all your followers. And I’m just, this is it. Thank you.’
Artie Mead: ‘Cool. No worries, Bruno. Thank you so much. Well, guys, thank you for listening. That’s all we have time for, unfortunately. But yeah, please also do go and check out the Ayrton Senna film from 2010 directed by Asif Kapadia. Really, really, really fantastic film and shows you a lot about his life. Well, yeah, anyway, that’s all we have time for. Thank you very much, Bruno.’
Bruno: ‘Thank you to you and all your audience.’
Artie Mead: ‘Lovely speaking to you and guys, see you next time. Thank you very much. Goodbye.’