Artie Mead: ‘So hi, everyone! Welcome back to The History Buff. You’re here with me, your resident History Buff, Artie, and recurring History Buff, Anna Morris.’
Anna Morris: ‘Honourable guest.’
Artie Mead: ‘Honourable guest. How are you, my darling?’
Anna Morris: ‘I’m really good. It’s a little warm here in Berlin. So, Artie and I are all set with our ice-cold brewskis.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, welcome back to The Tudors: A Real Game of Thrones. This episode is the third in our instalment and is going to be about Henry VIII, his young life, and early reign.’
Anna Morris: ‘And I feel like this is where it starts to really kick off.’
Artie Mead: ‘It does.’
Anna Morris: ‘Because, let’s be honest, as soon as you say “Henry VIII,” you get these, like, images of just power, and gold, and riches, and scandal. So, yeah, really excited to finally embark on our main character.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘As many people would call him, the main character of British history.’
Artie Mead: ‘And you would say that?’
Anna Morris: ‘I think he was just… there was so much change in his reign.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Definitely the most influential.’
Anna Morris: ‘Definitely the most influential because his decisions have changed the face of England, and I think that whole period, because he was very much in the Renaissance period. So— And the Renaissance literally means rebirth. So, you have a whole influx in that kind of hundred years of new ways of thinking, people starting to question, a huge, like, new intelligence, and everything was— everything was changing. And I think Henry VIII really embodied this. His reign was one long period of change.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘And yeah, I think this really shows in his personality, which we’ll go into in the episode, of really how he wanted to present himself.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘And I think “Renaissance Prince” is what he was really keen—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘To embody.’
Artie Mead: ‘And— but the thing is, though, something that we’re going to discuss and what a lot of people don’t know is that actually his kind of title, if you like, was just “The Spare.”’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Because, yeah, not a lot of people know this, but he wasn’t actually the one who was going to inherit the throne.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. He had an older brother.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. So, we’re going to go into that. But, so yeah, I was going to ask this question, but yeah, so you do believe that Henry VIII is Britain’s most… I would definitely say he’s Britain’s most famous.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yes, he’s Britain’s most famous.’
Artie Mead: ‘But that’s because of, you know, the six wives.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘I would say that’s the thing that is—’
Anna Morris: ‘I think if he was, like, monogamous with one—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. And it’s because of the nursery rhyme that we know.’
Anna & Artie: ‘Divorced, beheaded, died. Divorced, beheaded, survived.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, yeah, it’s— So that is, I think, part of the reason why he is so famous—or I guess infamous, the way you look at it.’
Anna Morris: ‘I think it’s also a lot of the— if you think of the early portraiture kind of coming out of that period. And, you know, Renaissance was very glitz and glamour, but these huge self-portraits of kings. And if you compare his portrait to that—’
Artie Mead: ‘The famous one of his bulging codpiece, and he’s like—’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, I mean, it’s iconic. If you compare the portraits of him versus those of his father, the way that he has even his stance, the colours used. And I think—’
Artie Mead: ‘Whereas Henry VII is like very kind of like… not demure, but like a lot more austere.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, for sure. A lot more mysterious, maybe a lot more removed. Whereas Henry is, like, bold. And I think with the Renaissance as well, there was definitely an improvement, shall we say, to the kind of— I mean, not the ink, the paint used. They were mixing different colours. I can’t exactly remember the chemical makeup of it, but you know, using egg yolks and things to make that real gold colour. So, Henry obviously was painted larger than life and seen as this… he was very— he made himself godly— Almost.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And I think he really understood that. He really understood, like, that he is meant to be God’s representative on Earth.’
Anna Morris: ‘Absolutely.’
Artie Mead: ‘And I think he took that role very seriously.’
Anna Morris: ‘Very seriously.’
Artie Mead: ‘And, yeah, I mean, after his… Henry VII, so his father’s reign, which was pretty, not austere, but… but he didn’t—he wasn’t extravagant. And when Henry VIII came to the throne, he was like, “Okay, right, I’m gonna have a proper court with, you know, with all the kind of bells and whistles.”’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘So our main character, so if you like, the most famous monarch—’
Anna Morris: ‘Or protagonist.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, or protagonist, or antagonist, whichever way you’re looking at it… Well, no, but it is interesting because he did go from this Renaissance Prince to a pretty horrible tyrant in his later reign. But anyway, we’ll get into that.’
Anna Morris: ‘For sure. I mean, the early— So, it’s very— So, firstly to say, we can speculate about the early years of Henry VIII. However, it will just be speculation.
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘What we do know is, as “The Spare,” he wasn’t raised, you know, with this education to become the king, which meant, although he was highly educated, he had a lot more freedom in his upbringing. He was very cold as a child because he grew up with his sisters and his mother in the countryside. Very carefree and very, you know, without this burden on his shoulders, knowing one day I would be king. Hugely intelligent.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Boy and man.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Highly, you, know, I think he spoke like five different languages.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Music, poetry, and he was a Romantic. He was very— Maybe it was his kind of feminine environment. Maybe it was these ideas of chivalry. But if we think that he— So, he married his brother’s widow, Catherine of Aragon, and she was very highly regarded. And he, I think, highly respected her as well. From, you know, coming from that background, there was a very important alliance for England to have. And his early— From, you know, from various accounts, we know they were very, very happy. But sadly, their marriage was completely shadowed by loss.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, no, but also just Henry’s overarching desire, need for a son.’
Anna Morris: ‘It was a need because, as well, you have to think that Henry, as he was growing up, he saw his father engaging in a lot— I mean, he was always under threat. I mean, at the first half of Henry VII’s reign.’
Artie Mead: ‘Who? Henry VII?’
Anna Morris: ‘Henry VII—there was constantly people pretending to be an heir, or there was a lot of—’
Artie Mead: ‘Warbeck Perkin.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly, your favourite.’
Anna Morris: ‘Oh, yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Warbeck Perkin. And then who’s the other one? Lambert.’
Anna Morris: ‘Lambert.’
Artie Mead: ‘Lambert Simnel.’
Anna Morris: ‘And so he witnessed— You know, his father was always under enormous stress to maintain the throne. And this definitely would have resonated with him—this fear that he could be overthrown at any minute and there were enemies.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘And I think this would have definitely influenced him in seeing how important it was, especially with the loss of his older brother. When his older brother died, he probably thought, “Thank God there’s another one.”’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘Because otherwise, you’re back to square one.’
Artie Mead: ‘And the thing is, all of this mixed together, he is a fascinating person.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And the thing is, because he’s so fascinating, because he was so influential, because he is the most influential monarch in British history, we are going to break his life down into four episodes.’
Anna Morris: ‘So aren’t you the lucky one?’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, you’re the lucky one. So we are gonna start this episode, yeah, with his early life and his early reign. Okay. So the story begins on the 28th of June 1491. So that is when Henry is born. He’s born at Greenwich Palace, and he is the second son of Henry VII and Queen Elizabeth. Okay? Queen Elizabeth of York. So the first son, Arthur, Prince Arthur, he was born on the 20th of September 1486. And then you also had other children as well. You had Margaret in 1489, Elizabeth in 1492, Mary in 1496, and Edmund in 1499. Both Edmund and Elizabeth don’t survive that long.’
Anna Morris: ‘That long.’
Artie Mead: ‘And— Now, the thing about Henry is that from a young age, he was actually showered with titles. He became the Constable of Dover Castle in 1493. He also became the Lord Deputy of Ireland in 1494, but there were obviously, like, real deputies doing the actual work over in Ireland. So, yeah, and he was raised at Eltham Palace. So he was surrounded by his sisters, his nurses. He was pretty mollycoddled.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘He received a prince’s education—like, he was taught grammar, rhetoric, poetry, ethics, history, and—’
Anna Morris: ‘Theology.’
Artie Mead: ‘—and theology. And yeah, and also— So, his handwriting was very— is interesting to look at because it’s very like his mother’s. And so—’
Anna Morris: ‘That’s so interesting.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Yeah. And because the way he flourished his certain letters—historians largely agree that—’
Anna Morris: ‘His mother would have had an impact in his learning.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. Or actually taught him. Or actually taught him herself. Yeah, exactly. Given a very strong grounding in the Catholic faith, which is ironic considering what was going to happen. But yeah, and he would actually later write Assertio Septem Sacramentorum, which is a defence of the seven sacraments. And this impresses Pope Leo X—’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘—who is so impressed that he grants Henry the title—’
Anna Morris: ‘Defender of the Faith.’
Artie Mead: ‘Defender of the Faith.’
Anna Morris: ‘Which is still carried.’
Artie Mead: ‘Still carried by the British monarch.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yep. The irony of that.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, it is kind of—it is, it is.’
Anna Morris: ‘But I think— Actually, this goes a little bit off topic, but I was going to say, didn’t—I think King Charles has asked to make it “Defender of the Faiths.”’
Artie Mead: ‘Faiths, yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘This is something— I don’t know if it’s actually gone through.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, no, no, no. Yeah. I guess because it’s to make it kind of more accessible. Lik more—’
Anna Morris: ‘More inclusive.’
Artie Mead: ‘Inclusive. Yeah, more inclusive. Yeah, exactly. But then something that would really affect his life: When he’s just three years old, he is invested as the order of the Knight of the Bath. So this is really kind of like his first taste of ceremony. And it’s crazy. So he’s three years old, and he basically had to learn an oath of fealty by heart. Robes had to be made for him for this induction because he was—’
Anna Morris: ‘Likse a a special baby onesie.’
Artie Mead: ‘Pretty much. Because he was so young. And this poor three-year-old had to, like, get in a bath, you know, and he— then his father came and made the sign of a cross on his shoulder, making him a knight. And then he had to stand vigil in a church all night. All night. Can you imagine?’
Anna Morris: ‘Did you stand at three years old?’
Artie Mead: ‘I—I don’t know. Mum, can you go out to him? But no, I’m not sure. I think my twin sister definitely stood before me. But yeah, so he basically was inducted as this knight with 22 other men who were like grown men, and he was three years old. So his father, Henry VII, made the cross on his shoulder while he was sitting in the bath, making him a knight. And yeah, he got like an absolution. And he then had to stand vigil all night in a chapel. He got this taste of ceremony, but also what he did is he then was able, through that, to see a jousting competition for the first time. And I think this really did have an impact on him because he first saw the world of knights for the first time.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, I think it’s— Again, it’s hard not to go into full kind of psychoanalysis mode of historical figures, but for sure someone who, to be surrounded by such glitz, such ceremony, arguably because his father was reserved, his exposure to it was much less. So when he did see it, he’s like, “I want more of that.”’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘And so his—’
Artie Mead: ‘The two of them, they had a bit of a strange relationship, I think.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, I think— I mean, I think firstly his father was—I mean, probably fairly absent. But also— this is the thing: When Henry comes to the throne, he’s 17. He’s definitely got these ideas of chivalry, of knighthood, of success. And his early years, we could say, he was manipulated because there is this political elite, the ruling aristocracy, and they were taxed so heavily under Henry VII. That— Bring in his 17-year-old son—fresh, you know, wants to have a reign larger than life, a Renaissance prince—and they encourage, if not really influence him, to be the opposite of your father. To be—you don’t want to be this stingy, you know, mysterious, kind of demure monarch.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘You want international fame. This is what being king means.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘International fame, generosity, riches.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, celebrity king.’
Anna Morris: ‘Celebrity king. Because in those— When he comes to the throne—and this is something that I’ll talk about a little bit later—the, you know, the landscape of Europe at the time… Yourself as a monarch, you’re only as credible as your image.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘And this is where Henry VII, although he was, on paper—I mean, Henry VII, I think I mentioned before, is my favourite Tudor—’
Artie Mead: ‘Mm-hmm.’
Anna Morris: ‘—but although he was an incredibly successful king in a lot of ways, his reputation was completely annihilated.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘When Henry VIII comes to the throne, he is absolutely shredded by the political elite in the country who want to mould Henry VIII into the opposite of his father.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. And because, as we said, Henry started out as the spare, and he is still the spare at this point in his life. So after, you know, he’s invested as the Knight of the Bath—’
Anna Morris: ‘After he’s had his bath.’
Artie Mead: ‘After he’s had his bath, and then got knighted by his dad. Sounds like an average night, really. Getting, you know, having a bath— Yeah, getting knighted in a bath in Berghain. That sounds like a euphemism, doesn’t it? Yeah. So, basically, yeah, his father— So Henry VII, is very aware of the need to secure alliances. And he can see, obviously, that Spain’s star is ri— Well, it has risen because by that point, Spain is like the big European power. And so, he forges an Anglo-Spanish alliance against France with Isabella and Ferdinand of Castile and Aragon. And so, the proposed bride from Spain is Catherine, the youngest daughter of Isabella I and Ferdinand II. So, Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon. So, um, it was promised by the Treaty of Medina del Campo on the 27th of March, 1489, only when Arthur was like three years old, and they would marry once they reached a canonical age. So when they were like, I guess, age of 10. Now Catherine’s dowry was actually set at 200, 000 crowns. So equivalent to—’
Anna Morris: ‘An insane amount.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. It’s about £5 million in today’s money—a lot of money. And— Now Arthur was actually below the age of consent, so this actually required a papal dispensation to be able to get him married. And the papal dispensation was issued in February 1497. Basically— Yeah, Arthur and Catherine, they are engaged. And so, Catherine eventually arrives in England on the 2nd of October, 1501, and the two of them do actually get on. And basically, the marriage ceremony was held on the 14th of November, 1501, and held at St. Paul’s Cathedral. Now— So this looks like the Tudor dynasty is now secure. Okay. So, they marry, but then both Catherine and Arthur become ill the next year in 1502 with English sweating sickness. So, Catherine recovers, but Arthur dies on the 2nd of April.’
Anna Morris: ‘And it’s important to note that because they were young and because they did get ill fairly quickly later on—well, Catherine swears before she’s then kind of married to Henry VIII that the marriage was not consummated.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘’Cause they were so young and then they got sick.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly’
Anna Morris: ‘Which led to a papal dispensation saying that Henry VIII may marry his brother’s widow.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. And the thing is, so Henry, obviously with the death of Arthur, becomes the heir, and obviously with that, his circumstances obviously changed drastically.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, his education would have been changed to include things to prepare him for being king, like statecraft, governance, and obviously, there was a lot more scrutiny over his marriage prospects. As we said before, he had quite a strained relationship with his father, who was quite distant. And to make matters worse for his father, for Henry VII— So Henry VII’s wife, Elizabeth of York, dies a year later in 1503, and this turns, I think, Henry’s father—so, Henry VII—into an even more kind of miserly man who was, like, more withdrawn and more distant.’
Anna Morris: ‘Withdrawn. I don’t think he was very warm.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And you can sort of tell that from, like, the paintings of him.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘You can— I think you can tell that he wasn’t a very warm person. He was just very kind of—’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, I mean, obviously, for the time, that wouldn’t have necessarily been unusual, but especially if you compare it to Henry VIII, all the accounts are like, he was larger than life, he liked to have fun, you know, there was a lot of energy around him at court, there was a lot of laughter, there was a lot of celebration. And I think his personality—that was a reflection of his personality.’
Artie Mead: ‘Who?’
Anna Morris: ‘Henry VIII. And Henry VII was withdrawn. Bit miserable.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, he liked to keep his own financial records and liked to just sit with his accounting books.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘So that kind of just says more than anything else, really—the fact that he enjoyed—’
Anna Morris: ‘Just like the weirdo.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. Not only does Henry now become the heir to the throne, he also inherits Catherine from Arthur, and they have to get a papal dispensation in order to marry, as they are technically siblings-in-law. The thing is, I didn’t know this, but Henry VII actually initially refuses to allow the marriage because he’s only had half of the dowry from Ferdinand and Isabella. And the thing is, Henry VII actually—because Catherine’s living in England at that point, on her own, with her household—so she’s now lost her husband, and Henry VII stops giving her money. Stops giving her money, keeps her secluded, and then in 1504, her mother, Isabella of—’
Anna Morris: ‘Castile.’
Artie Mead: ‘Castile. Isabella of Castile died, and her sister Joanna and her husband, Philip, inherited the Castilian throne. So, that meant that because Spain then became more—’
Anna Morris: ‘Separate—’
Artie Mead: ‘Separated, it basically meant that Catherine’s worth as a bride—’
Anna Morris: ‘Also halved.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, halved. So, Henry VII, I think, thought that Henry could do a lot better. And also, he was very handsome. And this is what I think a lot of people don’t know, is that when Henry was young, he was a very handsome boy.
Anna Morris: ‘Super athletic. He was over six foot tall, which at that time was—
Artie Mead: ‘Was very rare.’
Artie Mead: ‘Incredibly tall. He was built. He was super active. He was very, very dashing and very striking. And I mean, he was a real catch.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, Henry VII basically holds out for a better kind of marriage proposal for Henry. So, yeah, basically because Henry VII only had half the dowry, basically meant that he refused to allow them, Henry, his son and Catherine to marry. By the way, also bear in mind, Catherine is seven years his senior.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yep. However, it does need to be said, like, the alliance still at this point between England and Spain is crucial because England is so on the fringe of the continent. Henry VII has had no— hasn’t put England at the time of Henry VIII’s ascension to the throne. England is kind of forgotten.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘It’s still, I mean, Henry VII, one of his key aims was to secure England and to kind of decrease expenditure, to fill up the royal coffers. Which this meant—’
Artie Mead: ‘Which he did very successfully.’
Anna Morris: ‘Which he did very successfully. But it meant you don’t— he didn’t take England into international battle, which was so expensive.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘And in those days, to get credibility, to get a name as king, to be king or to be seen as ruler of a successful and mighty empire, you had to win international battles.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘And now— England’s now gone through, you know, over 100 years of kind of drawing back. I mean, the Wars of the Roses—that’s domestic battles. And International fame was not on Henry VII’s to-do list. So, England is withdrawn, and therefore an alliance with the most powerful kingdom at the time—Spain—is still in Henry VII’s interest, even if they haven’t coughed up half the dowry.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘Which is why he gives permission in the end, I think.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. Well, no, it’s—basically, Henry VIII—well, not Henry VIII at that point, Prince Henry—he is very annoyed at his father. He wants to marry Catherine. He meets her, falls immediately in love with her, wants to marry her, but Henry VII still doesn’t allow it. He says, “No, you might have other options,” all of this kind of stuff. But then, obviously, on the 21st of April, 1509, Henry VII dies. We think from tuberculosis—they’re not quite sure—but basically, yeah, he had been very ill, and he finally died. And so then, obviously, Henry becomes king. He becomes Henry VIII. So, on his deathbed, Henry VII has said to his son, “You need to marry Catherine of Aragon.” Okay, so I feel kind of sorry for Catherine because she had been, you know, held for seven years in England, basically at ransom almost. And I mean, we’ll talk about this more in the next episode when we go into details about the first three wives. But yeah, it was quite a torrid time for her. So, I do kind of feel sorry for her, to be honest. So—’
Anna Morris: ‘So let’s set the scene.’
Artie Mead: ‘Let’s set the scene. So, he becomes king, and immediately Henry VIII—the first thing he wants to do is set himself apart from his father.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yes. So how’s he going to do this, apart from personality-wise?’
Artie Mead: ‘So you think he knew how unpopular his father was?’
Anna Morris: ‘Absolutely. Because I think it was a big part of, like, when he set up his court and his advisers. His advisers were very heavily speaking against his father. Like we said before, Henry VII’s reputation was shredded. Henry VIII made himself quite popular by beheading his father’s tax collectors.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, he arrested Richard Empson and Edmund Dudley.’
Anna Morris: ‘Immediately gains him a huge amount of respect and liking.’
Artie Mead: ‘Because they were corrupt tax collectors, basically.’
Anna Morris: ‘Or even just tax collectors, to be honest. The way that Henry VII set up his tax system, the ruling classes—the aristocracy—they had to pay a huge amount of tax to the crown in various different shapes and forms. And they obviously used this young king coming to power, the 17-year-old, to try and get out of that, which they successfully did. Because Henry VIII’s image—he wanted to be seen as generous, as flamboyant, and he wanted to be this Renaissance prince.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And so making all these plans. So first of all, immediately to try and cut himself off from his father, executes his much-hated tax collectors. He also promised fair justice for all as well.’
Anna Morris: ‘Whatever that means in the 1500s.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. Well, he pardoned those wronged in the past under his father. And the thing is, this is the first time that a printing press was then used for propaganda for a new reign. They had leaflets distributed saying that it was from Henry’s good heart.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, scene. So he’s now then—he’s gotten rid of Empson and Dudley. He’s then pardoned those who were imprisoned under his father. And he is therefore seen as merciful, this merciful king who is beloved by all. And that’s how he wanted to portray himself, which he did really, really successfully.
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘ You know, just from his living in absolute splendour, his very generous… I mean, the amount—I can’t remember the exact figure—but the amount he used to spend on a weekly basis was insane.’
Artie Mead: ‘Right. So he blew his father’s—’
Anna Morris: ‘I mean, his father’s savings— The coffers were full. And he emptied them so quickly. And yeah, because obviously one of the first things he did was say, “I will get England back on the map. I want to be seen as the mighty king,” therefore cue the invasion of France in 1513.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘So, he gathers up his troops, and bearing in mind there has always been a rivalry between France and England, there was very little fighting going on in the reign of Henry VII. But obviously, Henry VIII wants to besiege France. And so, there’s a battle that took place in August 1513 called the Battle of Spurs. Now, it was won by the English.’
Artie Mead: ‘And they captured Pronay and Tournai.’
Anna Morris: ‘So, the capture of these two French cities… In reality, they were pretty pointless. They weren’t huge cities, they didn’t give you a huge amount of power, or they weren’t even seen as “we’ve invaded France.” However, the PR—and going back to your kind of the printing press, the rise of the print, the written word—it was advertised in England as the mighty young king gains territories in France. The capture of Tournai… And in reality, the battle is now called the Battle of Spurs because there was very little fighting. It’s called the Battle of the Spurs because the French cavalry actually—’
Artie Mead: ‘Not the football team?’
Anna Morris: ‘No, not at all.’
Artie Mead: ‘No not the football team. Okay. Right.’
Anna Morris: ‘Not quite.’
Artie Mead: ‘No.’
Anna Morris: ‘But they—’
Artie Mead: ‘See, you could tell how much I know about football.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. Very little. So the French cavalry actually, as soon as they saw the English, they turned and they kicked their spurs and rode away.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh. Okay. So there was no resistance.’
Anna Morris: ‘There was— no. So it wasn’t this, you know, huge win. It wasn’t this, like, “We’ve absolutely annihilated the enemy in battle.” It was very much: He arrived in just outside of Calais, and the French ran away. And then he marched to two cities and took them. However, the point is, Henry’s credibility through this absolutely rose through the roof. He’s now seen as the young king who stepped into his father’s shoes and who will bring glory back to England when there hasn’t been any for so long.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. After his father’s very—I would say, I think if you could—’
Anna Morris: ‘A gloomy reign.’
Artie Mead: ‘Gloomy reign, but also if you could sum it up in one word, it would be cautious.’
Anna Morris: ‘I mean—’
Artie Mead: ‘Way too cautious. Way too cautious.’
Anna Morris: ‘I mean way too cautious.
Artie Mead: ‘And defensive. And defensive.’
Anna Morris: ‘It was—he very much played on defensive. I suppose he almost—I suppose he had to. But yeah, the point is that Henry is seen as merciful. He’s seen as glorified.—’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, that’s how the propaganda portrays him.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. No, for sure. This is how you’ve seen him. This is why he’s so popular. Actually, in those early years, his popularity goes through the roof. Suddenly, he’s put England on the map.’
Artie Mead: ‘I think part of it is also because of his physical appearance. A Venetian ambassador reportedly says that he was so beautiful that he was almost feminine in his beauty, but in like a really—’
Anna Morris: ‘Masculine.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Sexy way. I mean, he was seen—’
Artie Mead: ‘He was the embodiment of—
Anna Morris: ‘A Renaissance king. And he was also seen as—bearing in mind the crown at that point—it was, it was… You were God’s representation on Earth. It was given to you—it was God’s gift to you.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And He leaned into that.’
Anna Morris: ‘And he leaned into that massively. He was… If you looked at him, you’d think he was royal and holy. You know, and he obviously thought it was his birthright to be king. But he definitely used that, and it definitely worked.’
Artie Mead: ‘I mean, you know, when he comes to the throne in 1509, he inherits all of these riches from his father. And to be honest, I think if I was in his position, I would be— after, you know, years of kind of austere, kind of, like, you know, being really cautious guarding the throne, blah, blah, blah, I would, kind of be—and I saw the treasury was as full as it was, and it was full. I would be like “Okay, let’s have a bit of fun here.” Wouldn’t you as well?’
Anna Morris: ‘Obviously.”
Artie Mead: ‘Of course. Like, and—
Anna Morris: ‘Ofcourse. Also, like, a beautiful Spanish wife. And then— And also the— What’s interesting— So this is kind of— It goes back to what I said before, the rise of the old monarchs die, and you have their heirs take over. You have Charles I, the kind of—
Artie Mead: ‘Advanced.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yes, the very flamboyant young French king—you have Henry V—’
Artie Mead: ‘Who screwed everything that moved, by the way.’
Anna Morris: ‘Everything. And everything that didn’t.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘But then you have Henry— Charles V, who’s Holy Rome Empire. Then he was also a Habsburg, so he got all the Austro-Hungarian lands, he got all of— he got territories in Italy, he got the Lowlands. His reign, his rule was massive.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘And then Henry VIII, who wants to compete with that. Because if you put, I don’t know, three 18- to 22-year-olds in a field with loads of money and riches, and they’re all thinking they’re God’s gift on earth, they’re going to flex.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. Yeah.
Anna Morris: ‘They’re going to do some flexing.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, do some flexing. Exactly. So, I mean, yeah, I guess— I mean, you’re kind of talking about it now, but like, the state of Europe at the time, as you said, with these new monarchs, it was a new kind of generation. They were all very young.’
Anna Morris: ‘Renaissance full flow.’
Artie Mead: ‘Renaissance in full flow. So, Spain being the major power. And the thing is, though, still at this point, the Catholic Church does dominate religious life. But obviously, what we’re then going to come into is that in 1517, you then have the Reformation beginning. And this obviously then leads to a lot of, you know, religious upheaval across Europe. And obviously, that comes to England. But yeah, I mean, obviously, it’s not just through that. You also have, you know, economic changes. You know, you have the exploration of the New World. Also, yeah, as you said, the Renaissance was in full swing, offering, you know, advancements in art, science, literature, and humanist—chiefly humanist thinking. So, keeping the Church out of, you know, the way they were thinking. So honestly, you could argue this was the beginning of the Enlightenment, really.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, yeah, for sure I mean—’
Artie Mead: The roots of Enlightenment.
Anna Morris: ‘I think—so obviously where we mentioned Henry’s early reign—there is a very important character who we have to talk about, which is Thomas Wolsey.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘Now, Thomas Wolsey was the—
Artie Mead: ‘Son of a butcher.’
Anna Morris: Artie loves this fact.’
Artie Mead: ‘No, but the—
Anna Morris: ‘It’s like the rise—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. So, yeah, he was the son of a butcher. I mean, I would definitely say he’s Henry’s—Henry had multiple chief ministers in his time, but I think his most famous and I think most influential.’
Anna Morris: ‘Absolutely. I mean—
Artie Mead: ‘Either that or Thomas Cromwell.’
Anna Morris: ‘No, well, earlier reign, Thomas Wolsey, because Thomas Wolsey was a fantastic organiser, litigator. I mean, there are different ways of looking at this because ultimately Henry VIII is king. But if you say, how influential was Thomas Wolsey? How much power did he actually have? Thomas Wolsey took care of everything that allowed the young king to gallivant off, go hunting—’
Artie Mead: ‘Go hunting. And Henry loved that. Henry loved that. Like, he would literally be carrying his, you know, state box, his state papers, whatever. And the thing is, Cardinal Wolsey—Thomas Wolsey—he knew that Henry wanted to go and do those things. So he would be like, “Oh, sire, give me these. I can deal with these.”
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.“You go off and have fun.”’
Artie Mead: ‘And Henry was just, “Yes, exactly.” And because also, you’ve got to remember that Henry was so young, you know, when he came to the throne. He was 17, you know? So, like, he was so young, living his—he was basically living his best life.
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: And so, you then had this chief minister who was like, “Don’t worry about it. I’ll take care of the governing, you go and be the king. You go and enjoy your kingly, you know—”’
Anna Morris: ‘Benefits.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, your kingly pastimes.’
Anna Morris: ‘The thing is, Thomas Wolsey, because Thomas Wolsey was also the papal legate, which means he was kind of the representation of England in Rome.’
Artie Mead: ‘He actually went to Rome a lot.’
Anna Morris: ‘And he was excellent at getting things done. An example of this— And I think this lulled Henry VIII into a kind of sense of security because actually, when it came to church matters in England, Thomas Wolsey—who was the archbishop and the cardinal—he could take care of it. He had a good relationship with Rome, and he actually managed to get a lot of things done.
Artie Mead: ‘He did.’
Anna Morris: ‘And Henry VIII kind of thinks— So I think this later, when we do talk about the break with Rome, you have to remember that actually Henry didn’t have any trouble getting anything he wanted. Because Thomas Wolsey could sort it out, and Thomas Wolsey was a fantastic—’
Artie Mead: ‘Administrator.’
Anna Morris: ‘Administrator. Fantastic PR guy. I mean, in 1518, there was an international treaty called the Treaty of London, which basically hoped the 20 leading states across Europe would bring them to peace because there’s, you know, been— there’s always fighting. And it was this, it was initiated by representations of England and France. Now, England 10 years ago, completely irrelevant—fast forward to 1518, England is playing host to 20 leading nations in Europe, signing this international peace treaty that would support the Pope. And Wolsey put on the most insane display of riches and glory on English soil and everyone is in England, and everyone is celebrating in England. And England is suddenly at the forefront of peace in Europe. Henry VIII is being branded as a— no, the— not just the prince of the Renaissance but the prince of European peace.
Artie Mead: ‘Right. And the way Wolsey created this was just incredible.’
Anna Morris: ‘And Wolsey— the way Wolsey created this was just incredible.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, it’s kind of crazy to think that this butcher’s son ended up having such a big…
Anna Morris: ‘Impact.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, impact on—’
Anna Morris: ‘I mean, Hampton Court was built for Wolsey.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah? Oh, really?’
Anna Morris: ‘Henry VIII built it for Wolsey.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, I didn’t know that.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. Yeah, yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Wow, crazy. I thought it was built for Henry VIII.’
Anna Morris: ‘No, he built it for Wolsey and then moved into it after he cut off his head.’
Artie Mead: ‘That’s crazy. But okay, so yeah, he became Lord Chancellor of England. I guess you could say that’s basically the chief minister in December 1515. And the thing is, he actually did— Wolsey aimed to make England a central power in Europe.
Anna Morris: ‘Yup.’
Artie Mead: ‘And that’s where a lot of his kind of—so basically, you could say that for, I think, the first—well, the whole time that Wolsey is in power doing this stuff with Henry VIII—he is really pulling a lot of the strings because Henry is not really—’
Anna Morris: ‘He’s not that interested.
Artie Mead: ‘He’s not that interested. He doesn’t even like writing. Henry VIII doesn’t even like writing.’
Anna Morris: ‘Even though he has his mother’s Fs.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. But no, he— Yeah, as you said— Yeah, promoted a European-wide peace treaty in 1518. What’s crazy is that obviously Henry VIII then would have got the—so basically, Cardinal Wolsey is very happy to do all the dirty work, the hard work, and then let Henry take all of the credit. But he knows because he’s doing the actual hard work. He’s really the one wielding. He is really the one wielding the power.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. I mean, to be honest, in those days, anything you did, you did for the king anyway. But the king was very close with Wolsey. I mean, he—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, they really liked each other.’
Anna Morris: ‘He rewarded Wolsey with palaces, and, and riches, and titles, and, you know, the post of papal legate and all this stuff is given to Wolsey. So Wolsey was a hundred percent the second most important person in England. He was, and this obviously, he was also very important in the international church as papal legate. He was head of the clergy. He was a statesman. He was almost—he was one step below the king. And actually—’
Artie Mead: ‘He was basically prime minister.’
Anna Morris: ‘But maybe even higher, maybe even high, like, what’s up?’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, I guess cuz he had some—’
Anna Morris: ‘El Presidente.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, no. I mean, I guess because he had such unrivalled access to the king. But the things though that Henry really liked him because the thing is—’
Anna Morris: ‘Because he also enjoyed to have fun. There’s all these stories about them going hunting.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. And Wolsey was very charming. He was very charismatic. He told jokes. And he was hated by all of the other people.’
Anna Morris: ‘They were obviously all jealous.’
Artie Mead: ‘No. But you know why?’
Anna Morris: ‘And they were all joking about him being the butcher’s son.’
Artie Mead: ‘No, but, and— they would, because they thought of him as an upstart. But also, he was very witty and very clever, and he enjoyed humiliating people on Henry’s council.
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And he did, very often. ’
Anna Morris: ‘And Henry always use to found this really jokes.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, um—’
Anna Morris: ‘I think between them, you couldn’t get, like, a word in edgeways or anything.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘It’d be like me and you.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. ’
Anna Morris: ‘I’m Henry, you’re Wolsey.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Fine. You’re Henry, I’m Wolsey.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Because I’m always, like, “Wait, hang on.”’
Anna Morris: ‘Do you always wipe your fingers—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘He’s like—’
Artie Mead: ‘“We’ve got to, urgh, we’ve got to stick to this. Urgh!” But okay. So, it’s hard to overstate Cardinal Wolsey’s effect on England. I mean, later it’s his failure to get a divorce granted from Rome, which is what brings about his downfall, but we’ll go on into that in the next episode.’
Anna Morris: ‘For sure. So obviously, you have people scheming against him, but I think obviously with, with, with Wolsey, again, because he was so good—
Artie Mead: ‘And so competent.’
Anna Morris: ‘He managed to get—he managed to get Henry VIII everything he wanted. So Henry, I think when he went into this whole—again, we’ll talk about this when he went into this divorce, this idea to annul his marriage, he thought, well, Wolsey, no problem. Wolsey has never failed him yet.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, yeah, exactly. He’ll get it done.’
Anna Morris: ‘He always managed to do it.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Anna Morris: ‘But the one thing I would say is we kind of round off Henry VIII’s early years were hugely successful in the sense that he managed to do everything he wanted to do. But by, you know, in his early reign, he comes out, he’s got a wife international. You know, he’s, he’s very prominent on the international stage now. He did obviously suffer a lot of loss because Catherine of Aragon miscarried so many times. They lost his, you know, all the sons.
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘And this kind of coming into the next chapter when we start talking about his wives and the annulment and the break with Rome, this definitely had an impact on him. But apart from that, he was—he was flying high. He hit the ground running as a king. And he sword until he—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, his early reign, I think people really looked at him and was like, yeah, we’ve got an amazing—’
Anna Morris: ‘He’s impressive. He’s impressive.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘And I think another thing that I will quickly mention is there’s a fantastic event in 1520 for the Field of the Cloth of Gold.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘And this is a really good insight into the—not just the European stage at the time, but the radiance of Henry and what he was up against. It’s basically a five-day event that was seen as a treaty, as a friendly treaty between France and England. France is the first. Henry VIII meet up, and it’s called the Field of the Cloth of Gold because, for kilometres and kilometres, all these golden tents were set up, and it was literally five days of feasting, jousting—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, sporting competitions, cultural exchanges, political intrigue.’
Anna Morris: ‘And these two young kings— It was basically a dick-swinging contest. It was who can out—who can—who’s the richest.
Artie Mead: ‘And they wrestled. They wrestled and Henry lost.’
Anna Morris: ‘Henry lost. But you can imagine these two young glorious kings rolling around, just wrestling each other.
Artie Mead: ‘I know.’
Anna Morris: ‘There’s so much competition there, but there’s, it’s—it’s really this new era of ruling.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, pretty much. And it’s— So, the Field of the Cloth of Gold, it is, yeah, very—I guess you could say quite important because it sort of served as, yeah, as like this cultural exchange.
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And the thing that’s funny is that, kind of despite this outward display of friendship, the meeting was kind of, I think it was definitely marked by, like, underlying—like—’
Anna Morris: ‘there was so much tension. So much tension.’
Artie Mead: ‘But also they had all of these—’
Anna Morris: ‘But they loved it.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. They loved it because it was a chance for them to kind of, you know, be fierce.’
Anna Morris: ‘Two young Renaissance kings, like rolling around.’
Artie Mead: ‘Also doing—Also jousting, like jousting, like why the hell would you run—would you ride at someone with a thing? Are you asking to get killed?’
Anna Morris: ‘I thought you were going jousting tomorrow.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, yeah, we are.’’
Anna Morris: ‘What, you don’t want to come?’
Artie Mead: ‘No, we are.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘No, no, no. I forgot about that.’
Anna Morris: ‘Oh, what are you confusing with archery next weekend?’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And then hunting, and then hunting the week after, yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘I would love to joust you, Marty.’
Artie Mead: ‘With a, with a, what’s it called?
Anna Morris: ‘Like a foam noodle.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. A foam noodle. Exactly. Nothing—nothing harder than that. Thank you. Thank you very much. But—’
Anna Morris: ‘That’s going to be on— Check out our TikTok.’
Artie Mead: ‘But it’s like, but like, did these fucking kings have a death wish?’
Anna Morris: ‘Yes. No, no, they just, it was—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Danger.’
Artie Mead: ‘No, no.’
Anna Morris: ‘It was like, the more dangerous, the better. They wanted to be shown.
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, they wanted to show off. They just wanted to show off.
Anna Morris: ‘It was one—five days of showing off and who could show off the most. And it was honestly, it was— But people loved it!’
Artie Mead: ‘It does look amazing. It does look amazing.’
Anna Morris: ‘People loved it.They were like, “This is what we expect from a king.”’
Artie Mead: ‘The Field of the Cloth of Gold. We’ll show you some pictures. Oh my God, it looks incredible.
Anna Morris: ‘I would love to go. It’s like a modern, early, early modern festival.’
Artie Mead: ‘And it’s called the Field of the Cloth of Gold because there’s lots of gold, like—
Anna Morris: ‘Everything’s gold. Every tent was gold. ’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, every tent was gold.’
Anna Morris: ‘And it’s stretched for kilometres and kilometres.
Artie Mead: ‘And so, yeah, it was— Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, both kings tried to kind of, like, assert their dominance. And kind of secure, I guess you could say, an advantageous position in, you know, European politics.’
Anna Morris: ‘They both— Yeah, they just both wanted to look, look glorious.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, I mean, despite the pomp and circumstance, Field of the Clock of Gold did little to change the political landscape.’
Anna Morris: No, they still— like, honestly, they still hated each other.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And— No, but even during the time, they knew.’
Anna Morris: ‘They were the biggest, biggest rivals.
Artie Mead: ‘Rivals, exactly. Yeah. And within a few years, England and France were odd again.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, for sure. I mean, exactly. And then to be honest, I think pretty soon afterwards, Henry VIII formed an alliance with Charles V, so the whole thing was a complete waste of money.’
Artie Mead: ‘Complete waste of time.’
Anna Morris: ‘But a lot of fun.’
Artie Mead: ‘A lot of fun and allowed them to kind of, I guess you could say demonstrate.’
Anna Morris: ‘And I mean it— again, solidifies Henry’s image in England as the Renaissance King and that is Henry’s early reign, that is what it’s about.
Artie Mead: ‘Chivalrous knight.’
Anna Morris: ‘Chivalrous knight. Glorious, sent from God, like bigger than life.
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Almost, almost—’
Artie Mead: ‘Like me, I’m sent from God.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly, bigger than life.
Artie Mead: ‘But no— Yeah, I mean, I guess the Field of the Cloth of Gold, it does still remain a symbol of the Renaissance’s opulence, and the kind of complex interplay of like, politics.’
Anna Morris: ‘I’ve actually— you know, I’ve actually just Googled it, and apparently the Field of the Cloth of Gold, in terms of the wider French economy, cost about one eighth of the state’s annual budget.’
Artie Mead: ‘But they, they, they, they paid exactly the same amount, right?’
Anna Morris: ‘I have no idea. I don’t know. But still, that’s crazy.’
Artie Mead: ‘That is crazy.’
Anna Morris: ‘Spent in five days.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, but the thing is that I think it was just a joint show.
Anna Morris: ‘More than one third of England’s total annual income. They spent a third of England’s income on a five day festival just for the King’s wrestling. That is crazy.
Artie Mead: ‘That is crazy. Wow.’
Anna Morris: ‘That is nuts. I mean, Henry VII would be turning in his grave.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Oh my God. Wow. Okay. Wow. Like— well, anyway, that was super interesting discussion. As we said at the beginning, we’re going to divide up Henry’s life into four parts. So yeah, the first— Yeah, the— So basically, we’re going to do four episodes. So the first one now, so his early reign, early life and early reign. And then— So the next episode, we’re going to do his first three wives.
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And then the episode after that we’ll do the break with Rome.’
Anna Morris: ‘Loads of drama to come.’
Artie Mead: ‘Loads of drama. And then the episode after that by Henry VIII will be about his next three wives, his final three wives. So, yeah, stay tuned. But, yeah, thank you guys for joining. It’s been a pleasure.’
Anna Morris: ‘Thank you for having me, Artie.’
Artie Mead: ‘No worries, my queen. Why— I have a question.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘Is always wanted to ask you this.’
Anna Morris: ‘Oh, yeah?’
Artie Mead: ‘Why are you such a fucking queen?’
Anna Morris: ‘Well, I’m just born like this, you know.’
Artie Mead: ‘I’m born that way.’
Anna Morris: ‘I’m just born that way.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, Gaga’s song ‘Born This Way’ was her being—’
Anna Morris: ‘It was written about me.’
Artie Mead: ‘It was about her, and her, and her being a queen, basically.’
Anna Morris: ‘Some people are just born into greatness.’
Artie Mead: ‘I know, exactly. And some have a greatness thrust upon them, and that’s me. So guys, yeah, thank you for joining. And we will see you next time when we talk about Henry VIII’s first three wives.
Anna Morris: ‘Stay tuned.’
Artie Mead: ‘Okay, bye guys.’
Anna Morris: ‘Bye.’
Artie Mead: ‘Ciao.’