Artie Mead: ‘Hi, everyone. So, welcome back to another episode of The Tudors: A Real Game of Thrones with me, your resident history buff, Artie, and recurring history buff—’
Anna Moris: ‘Anna Morris.’
Artie Mead: ‘Anna Morris. A familiar face on this channel. So, yes, we’re back with another episode. And in this episode, we’re going to be talking about the first three wives of Henry VIII. Yes, I guess before we get started, how are you, my darling?’
Anna Moris: ‘I’m good.’
Artie Mead: ‘Having a good summer? A hot summer?’
Anna Moris: ‘I’m good. Yeah, really. It’s hot, hot, hot here in Berlin.’
Anna Moris: ‘It is.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yes, there’s not much to do apart from, you know, sit indoors and talk about history.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. So, I’ve just had my teeth cleaned, by the way, and not going to lie, getting it cleaned, getting your teeth cleaned—’
Anna Moris: ‘Is a horrible experience.’
Artie Mead: ‘It’s pretty horrible. They’re like trying to get into your mouth and prove a point.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘But not going to lie, I feel like a new man, though.’
Anna Moris: ‘What did they say about your teeth? Any cavities, or…?’
Artie Mead: ‘No, were saying they’re very healthy, but because I have, like, a wire on my bottom teeth, plaque builds up quite easily.’
Anna Moris: ‘Lovely.’
Artie Mead: ‘But apart from that, I got good reviews.’
Anna Moris: ‘A very smiley episode from Artie today.’
Artie Mead: ‘Look at that. Anyway, so I feel like a new man now and ready to talk about lots of history. Yes, Henry VIII’s wives. I guess, to be honest, it’s got to be what Henry VIII is most famous for.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, for sure.’
Artie Mead: ‘But I guess you could argue it’s through his wives that so much change came about.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, I mean, to be honest, the thing is, his wives were such a huge part of his identity because they were so— it was this absolute hunger for a son.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Moris: ‘And therefore, he needed a spouse to give him a son.’
Artie Mead: ‘Mm-hmm.’
Anna Moris: ‘And I mean, I personally don’t doubt that if Catherine of Aragon had given Henry VIII a son—’
Artie Mead: ‘He wouldn’t have divorced her.’
Anna Moris: ‘He wouldn’t have divorced her. Yes, I mean, there’s no reason. It was very usual in those times for a king to have multiple mistresses. I mean, he definitely had a lot, even when he was with Catherine of Aragon. So, I think it was this obsession with having a legacy, creating a dynasty.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘And obviously, we discussed this in the last episode of how important— how he saw how crucial having a strong heritage, a strong dynasty. I mean, that’s what saved his father, essentially. ‘
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘And that’s what enabled his father to set up the Tudor House. So, that was greatly influential and seen as completely crucial in those times.’
Artie Mead: ‘But after seeing his father trying to secure the throne, I think he then was then left with this feeling of kind of very— an unstable claim to the throne and felt that the only way he could do it was by having a son. It is this need for a son that is really the kind of core, kind of—’
Anna Moris: ‘Driving factor.’
Artie Mead: ‘Driving factor that laces its way throughout Henry VIII’s 38-year reign.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And it’s really the the kind of, I guess you could say, thing that actually eventually is what makes him end up having six wives.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah. Yeah. And it’s always interesting when you think of the irony of, you know, I think it was after Jane Seymour—who we’ll cover later in the episode—where he finally gets his son, but his son was— you know, it turns out, arguably, it was all for nothing because who was— the monarch that reigned the longest in the Tudor times was Elizabeth I, and actually, she actually died childless.
So, it was arguably pointless because his son was only on the throne for about six years in the end.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. So, we’re going to cover three wives in this episode. So the first, Catherine of Aragon. They were married for 24 years, by far the longest marriage of any of Henry VIII’s wives. A pretty tragic figure. She had a very hard life and obviously ended up failing to produce a male heir, and she would ultimately end up being discarded and forced to live out the rest of her days miserable and alone.
The second wife, Anne Boleyn.’
Anna Moris: ‘Drama, drama, drama.’
Artie Mead: ‘Drama, drama, drama. They were married for three years. She also fails to provide Henry with a son and is then beheaded on trumped-up charges. We’ll get into that a little bit later. And then you have the third wife, Jane Seymour. They were married for 17 months. And she does provide an heir, but then ends up—’
Anna Moris: ‘Unfortunately, dies 12 days later.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. Shall we get into it?’
Anna Moris: ‘Yes, let’s do it.’
Artie Mead: ‘Cool. So, we’re going to start with Catherine of Aragon. So, Catherine of Aragon was born on the 16th of December 1485 and was the daughter of King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Queen Isabel I of Castile. Now, those two are really thought of as the people who set in motion the unification of Spain because these were the two biggest regions of Spain. And actually, through her mother, she was actually descended from John of Gaunt, so she did have English blood, royal English blood. So, Henry VII and Ferdinand and Isabel entered into negotiations about a marriage between Arthur and Catherine in 1488, and this was actually done to counter France, that was also a big power in Europe at the time.
But negotiations actually broke down over the size of Catherine’s dowry, which is a sum of money that’s paid to the family that are taking a woman from another family to kind of cover various costs and all of this kind of stuff. So finally, in 1489, the Treaty of Medina del Campo was agreed; but, however, there were still details to work out. At this point, Arthur, Prince Arthur, the first son of Henry VII and his wife, Elizabeth, was only two, and Catherine was three. So then, eventually, on the 1st of October 1497, they finally agreed on the terms of the marriage, and it wouldn’t take place until Arthur turned 14, so in 1501.
And actually a papal dispensation was required because they were so young, and it was granted by Pope Alexander VII, and a dowry of 200, 000 escudos was promised to Henry VII. So a proxy wedding was held in 1499 whilst Catherine was still in Spain, and was instead represented by a Spanish delegation. And in autumn 1501, she finally set off for England, and she would never return to Spain. So, she gets to England. Yeah, in October 1501 meets Arthur and they actually couldn’t communicate because neither of them spoke the other’s language.’
Anna Moris: ‘Oh, like my parents.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, really? What, when they first met?’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, they could—’
Artie Mead: ‘Really?’
Anna Moris: ‘Well, my dad didn’t speak German.’
Artie Mead: Oh, okay.
Anna Moris: ‘And my Mum’s English.’
Artie Mead: ‘Was— Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘A little broken.’
Artie Mead: ‘Aww.’
Anna Moris: ‘Gonna kill me for saying that.’
Artie Mead: ‘But the thing is, though, you know, in this case, they both spoke Latin. But they had, had learnt different pronunciations. So they also couldn’t really understand each other in Latin either.’
Anna Moris: ‘I hear that’s the, the key to a happy marriage.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, or speaking Latin.’
Anna Moris: ‘No, not understanding each other.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, I mean, obviously not eventually for Catherine, but we’ll get into that.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, they married at St. Paul’s Cathedral on the 14th of November, 1501, and then they very quickly set out for Wales where Arthur would govern the principality as Prince of Wales. Now, historians debate whether they did actually consummate the marriage.’
Anna Moris: So, it is David Starkey who points out in his book on Henry’s six wives that only God knows what happens between Catherine and Arthur on their wedding night. So, there’s Sir Anthony Willoughby, who’s a servant of Arthur’s, who claimed that the morning after the wedding night, Arthur had said to him, “Willoughby, bring me a cup of ale, for I have been this night in the midst of Spain.” Now, he later said to his attendants, “Master, it is a good pastime to have a wife.” But, was he simply boasting? Catherine of Aragon was absolutely adamant that they did not consummate the marriage. And even her first lady of the bedchamber wrote to Catherine’s parents after Arthur’s death, telling them their daughter was still a virgin. Now, given how sickly Arthur was very quickly, we don’t know. It could be— there was obviously a theory that actually he was too ill to seal the deal in the first place.
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘And naturally, Arthur would have been quite boastful of, you know.
Artie Mead: I read an account that said that he was, but—
Anna Moris: Yeah, he was. Well, he was very boastful that he’d done it, but then, you would be.
Artie Mead: Yes, exactly, especially if you were that old.
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘If you were only, you know, a teenager. Come on, teenagers are always boastful about those things. So—
Anna Moris: ‘Some things don’t change.’
Artie Mead: Yeah, they don’t. They never change.
Anna Moris: ‘500 years ago, it was exactly the same.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, um, yeah, they both contracted English sweating sickness, which kills you—like that. And yeah, Arthur died on the 2nd of April, 1502, but Catherine recovered. So, she became a widow after just four months of marriage.
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Now, there was immediate interest, obviously, in marrying her to Henry, obviously Henry VII’s second son, who was now heir, but he was 12 years old at the time, six years younger than Catherine. And a treaty was actually formalised in summer 1503 about this marriage. And it needed a fresh papal dispensation because they were siblings-in-law.’
Anna Moris: ‘Julius II had to grant a special—it’s called a papal dispensation—because canon law forbids a man to marry his brother’s widow, citing incest, essentially. Now Catherine testified that her marriage to Arthur was not consummated and therefore not valid. So, it’s important to note the effort here that was gone to secure Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon in the first place.
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Moris: ‘Now, this is an essential foundation for the argument later to get them divorced.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly.’
Anna Moris: ‘To get the marriage annulled because Henry VIII states that Julius II should never have allowed the dispensation on reasons of incest. And so, so that’s a very important—so this, what was used then 24 years later, we see it.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And the thing is, so, and part of this was that the marriage contracts said they had to wait until Henry was 15. However, Catherine’s situation changed dramatically in 1504 when her mother, Queen Isabella of Castile, died. And so, that meant that her eldest daughter Juana became queen, and she was married to Philip of Austria, also known as Philip the Handsome.’
Anna Moris: ‘My countryman.’
Artie Mead: ‘And Ferdinand then tried to take over the rule of Castile himself, and so this led to diplomatic unrest in Spain, and this led to second thoughts in England over the marriage. So, Henry VII actually started to look for matches elsewhere for Henry, as Catherine basically became politically useless. And so, in 1506, Philip died, and this led to Ferdinand declaring Juana insane and taking over the rule of Castile. However, Catherine’s status continued to remain in question, and Henry VII by this point had actually rather cruelly stopped giving her and her household money. And she ran up a lot of debts, and it’s because Henry had only received half the dowry from Ferdinand by this point.
And something that a lot of people don’t know is that Henry VII had actually considered marrying her himself, which I think surprises a lot of people. So, by 1505, after four years in England, she was still not fluent in English because she kept a household of only Spanish companions. And she was regularly ill because she had a lot of stress. She didn’t have any money. And so, it was a pretty tough time for her in these years. But then eventually, Henry VII died on the 21st of April, 1509. And this again dramatically changes her situation. So, yeah, Henry VIII, as he then became that day, Henry, his son Henry became Henry VIII.
He said that his father, Henry VII, told him to marry Catherine on his deathbed, and they married on the 11th of June 1509. So, they were then crowned on the 24th of June 1509 in Westminster Abbey, and Catherine takes the motto “Humble and Loyal”. So, yeah, after these seven horrible years, she overcame her difficulties, showed tenacity, and soon after, she became pregnant but miscarried in 1510.’
Anna Moris: ‘So, unfortunately, her reign—well, throughout her reign, throughout her, you know, her being Henry’s wife—it’s littered with miscarriages, with infant mortalities. It is very sad.’
Artie Mead: ‘It is.’
Anna Moris: ‘And bearing in mind how long they were actually married for, she, I mean, she, she was, you know, pregnant every year. That’s almost— that’s a huge loss and suffering, and it’s—’
Artie Mead: ‘Not just mentally, but also physically as well.’
Anna Moris: ‘Exactly. And I mean, she was— she was incredibly—she was actually described by Alison Weir as the true queen because she was an incredible partner for Henry VIII in general.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly.’
Anna Moris: ‘But it was— You know, it became very apparent that, as ofcourse she was also older than Henry, it became apparent at a certain time that she would not be able to give him a male heir.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘And—’
Artie Mead: ‘It’s kind of sad, really, because obviously, I mean, they do have births. And actually, she does give birth to a baby boy on New Year’s Day 1511. And obviously, this causes lots of celebrations. They’re like, “Yeah!” Henry is like, “Yeah, we’ve secured the throne!” And the baby boy is named Henry after Henry, obviously, but the baby died seven weeks later. And it’s fair to say they were both pretty devastated.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, it was. And obviously, this becomes a theme in their marriage. And Henry VIII, who already has, you know, several mistresses—probably more than several—as all, you know, kings did in those times.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, you know why? It’s because whenever she was pregnant, he couldn’t—because back then they believed that if you had sex whilst you were pregnant, it would harm the baby. So often, Catherine was so often pregnant that Henry couldn’t have sex with her, so this meant that he had a wandering eye.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, in 1513, Henry launched a campaign against France, and he actually left—this is a mark of how much he respected her.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Left her in charge of England as governor.’
Anna Moris: ‘She was Regent.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, Regent. And so, Henry’s in France. And so, the King of Scotland, James IV, is like, “Oh, you know, there’s a woman in charge. Perfect time to invade.” So, he invades England, and she actually rides up to meet him at Flodden wearing full armour and defeats James IV on the 9th of November, and James IV is killed. And Catherine actually sent Henry, who was in France, James IV’s bloodstained coat as a trophy. So, I think that kind of—it does show you that the first years of their marriage had this kind of mutual respect. This mutual— Yeah, kind of, trust and, and yeah. It’s a shame really because it just showed a lot of promise in the beginning.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah. And she was actually the only one out of the wives who was a princess, who was—had such—well, in comparison, I mean, she had such royal blood and such powerful heritage that this definitely counted for something. And there was a kind of union of such great potential, you know, the Spanish princess, the young English king—both full of energy and life. And it does become, you know—and it was a great partnership, but then it does turn into a very sorry tale.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. And yeah, there was possibly another boy born in the days after the Battle of Flodden in September 1513, but if so, he died soon after.’
Anna Moris: ‘There were a few.’
Artie Mead: ‘Eventually, obviously, a girl was born in February 1516 called Mary, and she survived. Okay. Who, obviously, then later become Mary I, but England had never had a woman on the throne. You did actually have a woman who tried to be queen hundreds of years before, called Matilda, but it was—she failed, basically. It was a massive fail. And yeah, Henry pined, obviously, for a male heir. So, between 1510 and 1518, Catherine had six miscarriages.’
Anna Moris: ‘That’s a lot.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. So, towards the end of 1514, Henry took a new mistress called Elizabeth Blount, or Bessie, and she became pregnant four years later and gave birth to a boy, which is named Henry FitzRoy—FitzRoy meaning son of a king.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yes. This is a very interesting point because it cements to Henry that he is not to blame. It is Catherine of Aragon, and therefore he starts to think of other possibilities—how to get a son.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Moris: ‘And It is about this time that he becomes infatuated with Anne Boleyn.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, so basically—Yeah, in 1526, began his affair with Anne Boleyn, and he basically became—’
Anna Moris: ‘When we say affair, it is important to note it wasn’t a sexual affair, it was courtship.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Moris: ‘Because this was kind of the power that Anne held over him, with refusing to sleep with him.’
Artie Mead: ‘But yeah, Catherine refused, flat-out refused to divorce him, and Henry’s chief minister, Wolsey, advised him against it.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah. So, Catherine is seen as a very pious, devout wife, mother, and some actually say—did she make it—I mean, she had the faith. If she’d bowed down gently, you know, if she’d bowed out, the fact that she actually refused to changed the course of England’s history, because there wouldn’t have been a need to break with Rome had she said, “I will make this possible for you.”’
Artie Mead: ‘Okay. And you know why? It’s because Henry was like, “Okay, can you just, like, quietly agree to go to a nunnery?”’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And become a nun.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘So he— Henry basically argued that he had effectively married his sister because of her being married to Arthur before. Which is kind of crazy, really. It’s quite hypocritical of Henry to say that— to say after almost 20 years of marriage, he suddenly felt his scruples about marrying her.’
Anna Moris: ‘Well, yeah. They were clutching at straws. I mean—’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. To have, like, a legal basis.’
Anna Moris: ‘To have a legal basis. I mean, this was the thing, and we will cover this in—we have an entire episode which will outline the break with Rome, the various reasons for, you know, for it. And bringing in Anne Boleyn, it was a seven-year struggle to get them married.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘So, if we just initially start with, you know, a little bit of background to Anne Boleyn, we’re not actually sure when she was born. So they reckon around 1500, but she’s definitely one of the most intriguing figures in history because she’s seen as kind of this ruthless schemer.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘And she was born to Sir Thomas Boleyn, who was a very respected courtier.’
Artie Mead: ‘First Earl of Wiltshire.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yes, and her mother, Elizabeth Howard, was the daughter of Sir Thomas Howard, who was the Duke of Norfolk. And what we see, especially in the rise of Anne Boleyn, is huge factions appearing at court. You know, since the death of Wolsey, you see a rise of various courtiers kind—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes’
Anna Moris: ‘Kind of battling it out to get that position, to get the king’s ear.’
Artie Mead: ‘I think this was the root of the party system in politics.’
Anna Moris: ‘Well, actually, that’s a good point. Yeah. Arguably, you could have, you know, the Seymour faction, who were like—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Anna Moris: ‘But who were like the Labourers.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Anna Moris: ‘And for the, you know, the Norfolk—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. Because that’s what it eventually became. It became fights at court between the reformists and the conservatives.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yes. She grew up in Hever Castle in Kent, which I’ve been to a million times.’
Artie Mead: ‘Have you?’
Anna Moris: ‘I loved it so much as a child. Especially their water maze. It’s really the best place for all ages.’
Artie Mead: ‘Has it been kept how it was?’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, it’s—it’s amazing. Oh, we’ll do a history filter.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, oh my God, let’s do it.’
Anna Moris: ‘So, we used to go always on family trips to Hever Castle. And, you know, it’s amazing. She grew up there, and she is definitely up there as one of the most educated of Henry’s wives. She spent a lot of time in France, in the court of Margaret of Austria, and was exposed to—not only was she fluent in, you know, Latin, French, English, Greek, her French education that she then brought back to England was extraordinary. She could sing, she could dance, she could play instruments, and she introduced new fashions at court.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, French fashions, yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘Very, it was this kind of very exotic education that gave her this edge over the court. If you compare her to the other courtiers, so the ladies-in-waiting to Catherine of Aragon, very, you know, pious, very conservative, very stuffy. In comes Anne Boleyn, and she’s, you know, full of these new ideas from the continent. And she was definitely extremely clever.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, no, and the thing is, though, with Anne Boleyn, is that you have these two kind of like narratives. The one that she was this like saucy minx who knew what she was doing and always kind of wanted to get on the throne. And then there’s this other one that she was actually, you know, she didn’t actually want to become queen. She just kind of eventually found herself in this situation, being courted by Henry VIII, and wasn’t actually this kind of saucy scheming minx.’
Anna Moris: ‘Well, I think you have to also put into context, at the time, there was only so much political influence that women could have in the first place. But what you do have is she, as with all the other women, to a certain extent, are slaves to the male counterparts in their families who have this influence, who use the women in their families to further their political agendas. So her father, for example, sees this unbelievable opportunity of power, you know, and he has his one daughter, Mary, who was, you know, a mistress to Henry VIII for three years in the early 1520s.
You then have this advancement of Anne and Mary to become ladies-in-waiting to Catherine of Aragon. And the closer you are to the king, the more political power you have. And so you kind of see Anne’s father using his daughters to further, you know, his name on the national stage. You then have Thomas Cromwell, who sees the opportunity to get close to the king by being able to make the king’s great matter happen. If he can sort that out for the king, then it’s an unbelievable position for him to be in.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘So yes, Anne was very ambitious. Yes, she was scheming. Yes, she was almost too educated for her own good and probably very naive to a certain extent, but it was made possible by a lot of other moving parts.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. And, and you’ve got to remember that, you know, when Henry starts courting her in 1526 and obviously his divorce from Catherine became his great matter, Henry, he had started assembling lawyers and churchmen to find out ways that he could annul his marriage to Catherine. And it’s by this point that he is absolutely infatuated with Anne. But I think she’s definitely the wife that he was the most lusting of her.’
Anna Moris: ‘I mean, it was incredible. In the Vatican library, there are 17 letters that have survived that were written by Henry to Anne. And they literally go into such detail about how the king’s heart belongs to Anne, his infatuation with her. And you also have to imagine, you now have quite a, a very tired, you know, elder, dark, you know, quite— that she’s not described as very attractive at all in Catherine of Aragon. And then you compare her to this, you know, young, vibrant, ambitious, quite obnoxious for her time, Anne Boleyn, who comes in in all the latest French fashions and is also very sought after by other men. And, you know, it’s this, he’s completely overwhelmed. I mean, and also she did not sleep with him. I mean, she refused to become a royal mistress.’
Artie Mead: ‘But I think that made him want her more.’
Anna Moris: ‘Of course, of course, the oldest trick in the book.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. And so I mean, I, and so I think this is, well, obviously, all the narrative of her being this kind of beguiling minx that comes to court and then gets his eye—it’s got to be kind of true, I think.’
Anna Moris: ‘Absolutely. I mean, he even— it was kind of love hearts around Anne’s initials in all the letters, and you see her kind of play this, you know, play the long game with him and 100 percent it worked.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, because, well, I mean, he does move heaven and earth because it leads obviously to the break with Rome, which we can have a whole episode about in the next episode. In late May 1529, the legatine court sat in England, and Catherine went before Henry and reportedly knelt before him. And she said that she had been his lawfully wedded wife. And this obviously embarrassed Henry because then she stormed off. And, you know, obviously after this, they started seeing less of each other. But it’s crucial to remember Henry did still love her. And he’s reported to have said if the marriage was good—as in, if she had given him a son—or actually, no, if the marriage was good, this is a narrative about it being legitimate, I would choose her above all other women.’
Artie Mead: ‘So yeah, despite Anne Boleyn getting her own faction at court, Catherine remained dignified, didn’t kick up a fuss, and she wrote to Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, and Pope Clement to refuse a divorce.’
Anna Moris: ‘So she also carried a lot of—this carried a lot of weight because the Holy Roman Emperor was her nephew. Her nephew had Spain, seen as the—he was a very pious man, and he was—Spain was seen as the right hand of the Catholic Church. And the Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V, was crusading at the time to also spread the message of the Catholic faith. He was deeply supported by the Pope and vice versa. You had them fighting, you know, the Moors; Catherine of Aragon had watched her parents expel the Jews. So it was this concept, this concept of this is the faith, and I’m not only supported by—I’ve got the whole of Europe on my side. And this really isolates Henry and Anne Boleyn.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Moris: ‘And this also leads to Anne Boleyn’s reputation, and she, I mean, she was so unpopular. She was not, you know, you had Catherine of Aragon, who was beloved by the nation, beloved by Europe, beloved by her massively powerful nephew, who was defending the Catholic faith, and they were on a religious mission. And bearing in mind, Henry also wroteDefence of the Faith.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, and he got the title, Defender of the Faith.’
Anna Moris: ‘Exactly. So, this also very much leads to the perception of Anne, who is seen from the get go as this shrew.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. Well, and also—and you know what else this leads to? It leads to the downfall of Henry’s chief minister, Wolsey, who fails to secure this annulment. So, he’s stripped to his powers by Henry, because up until this point in the late 1520s, he had literally basically been running the country. But yeah— Henry started—’
Anna Moris: ‘And he was beloved by Henry. Henry and Wolsey was such a team.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. Thy had a really good relationship.’
Anna Moris: ‘So Henry’s just cutting everyone off who can’t deal with his great matter. And this, like we said before, leads to the availability of the top, top dog job.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, the chief minister.’
Anna Moris: ‘Chief minister enter—’
Artie Mead: ‘Thomas Cromwell.’
Anna Moris: ‘Thomas Cromwell.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, yeah, he became, well, he became chief minister because you know what he did? He supported Henry in the English supremacy.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘Exactly. And he was a very clever lawyer from Cambridge. And historically, the University of Cambridge was, is more of a hot spot for rebellion, so you kind of had Oxford scholars, which were seen as, you know, that’s definitely more stiff, and the kind of more liberal way of thinking would come out of the University of Cambridge. So this is why, I mean, again, we will go into this when we speak about the break from Rome and the whole The Grey Matter, etc. But this was— gave rise to anyone who could secure the King’s wishes. And I mean, Anne Boleyn was exceptionally good at manipulation.
We have to say this, like for all her lack of, I mean, her lack of nothing, she was incredibly manipulative from dropping a copy of William Tyndale’s Obedience of a Christian Man into Henry’s lap when, you know, 15 years ago, he got a special title from the Pope for defending against such documents, for defending against such ideas. And now he’s reading The Obedience of a Christian Man, which, you know, this book argues that authority is not held by the Pope, but in the words of God enshrined in the Bible. Which definitely takes away from any kind of, which takes away from the validity of something like a papal allowance for a divorce. Because you don’t need it. I mean, it questions everything.’
Artie Mead: ‘It questions the whole order, yeah, exactly. And—so, yeah, poor Catherine is then sent away from court, and she lives out the rest of her life, miserable and alone, and really treated pretty awfully by Henry, actually, to be honest, and is not even allowed to see her daughter. And to be honest, I don’t really understand why Henry was this cruel to her, really, because, you know, already forced her from the throne. I just—I have to say, this really was quite cruel on Henry’s part.’
Anna Moris: ‘I mean, he wasn’t known for being—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, I mean, well, I mean, in his earlier reign he was. Yeah. He was, you know, young, athletic, and he was, you know, this Renaissance prince.’
Anna Moris: ‘Very moral.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. But, um, Henry and Anne, they eventually marry in— secretly in—’
Anna Moris: ‘January 1533. And this is because his marriage to Catherine actually wasn’t annulled until May 1533. So, at one point, I think he just said, “Fuck it. I’m gonna do it.” And he dismissed Catherine from the court—I mean, sorry, that happened in 1531, but then married Anne January 1533, annulled from Catherine 1533 in May, and then in September, a healthy daughter, Elizabeth I, was born to Anne Boleyn.’
Artie Mead: ‘Now not the craved son.’
Anna Moris: ‘Not the craved son. No matter. Anne is still young, she has time.’
Artie Mead: ‘Mary is, by the way, declared illegitimate.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, so Mary’s declared illegitimate as his marriage is annulled to Catherine. So yeah—so not the son. And actually what’s interesting, they were so convinced it was a boy, that in all over the, you know, the beautiful documents written out to announce the birth of a prince, they’d already written Prince. And then you can actually see, I think it’s in the National History Museum. The document, they had to squeeze in the two S’s at the end to make it Princess. Because every document had been prepared. Every cake had been iced for the birth of a prince. And then, it’s a daughter.’
Artie Mead: ‘It’s just—this is the biggest lesson in—just, like, don’t have expectations.’
Anna Moris: ‘She’s like, I’m having a son.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And then, she has three miscarriages after this and by March 1536 Henry was already, his eye was wandering and was basically already courting Jane Seymour, the third, who had become obviously the third wife.’
Anna Moris: ‘So just to finish off a short summary on Anne Boleyn, what was she like as queen? She was incredibly invested in his politics, his affairs, the gathering of his courtiers. She really threw herself in and she’d been seen actively promoting new educational identities for monasteries. She was a patronage of the court artists, including Hans Holbein.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘Who rose—’
Artie Mead: ‘He painted all the amazing—’
Anna Moris: ‘Painted all the amazing photos.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘So she was in every aspect of court life and in reign she tried to dominate. Now this is very important because turns out this was a massive mistake which was not repeated by any of the following wives. So she really threw herself in and it turned around and bit her in the arse.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, because basically all of the attributes that made her a very attractive mistress were then, Henry then found very unattractive in a queen.’
Anna Moris: ‘I mean, she just absolutely wasn’t meant to be like that. As the queen of a—sorry, the wife of a king, it is not your job to be the prime minister.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘To be like, a national sex symbol to be like, you know, passionate and spiritually superstitious and all of this stuff like you’re not—your job is not that. And that is so, you know, it got to a point where she wasn’t—In 1536 she had a stillborn son. And this, I stand by this, this would have saved her marriage.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘So for all her, you know, annoyances, for all her interfering, for all of, you know, the turmoil she bore, if she had secured a son, it would have all been forgiven and forgotten.’
Artie Mead: ‘It’s a common theme, isn’t it?’
Anna Moris: ‘It is. There we go.’
Artie Mead: ‘And yeah, on the 24th of January, 1536, Henry had a jousting accident, which is largely thought of to have really altered his life because after this, he had this kind of increased proclivity to mean and tyrannical behaviour, but Anne reportedly miscarried because of the distress of being told of his jousting accident.’
Anna Moris: ‘That’s probably what she told him.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, that’s probably it.’
Anna Moris: ‘Just tried to blame him. But this is the thing, so Anne’s and Henry’s relationship, that was built on passion.’
Artie Mead: ‘Passion. Lust.’
Anna Moris: ‘Lust and, you know, this crazy idea that this is gonna change their lives and like, the power and the riches.’
Artie Mead: ‘I mean, you have to be honest, hand it to her, she’s definitely, I think, the most consequential queen.’
Anna Moris: ‘Especially only in three years. I mean—’
Artie Mead: ‘She’s definitely the most consequential non regnant queen, as in, like, not the queen that actually rules.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, what’s funny is that she was actually originally allies with Thomas Cromwell, Henry’s second chief minister after Wolsey. However, what I think actually plays a part in her downfall is that they actually disagree on how the money from the dissolution of the monasteries, which don’t worry, we’re going to go into detail on in the next episode, about how that should be spent. Anne wanted it to go to charity, but Cromwell wanted to fill Henry’s coffers with it.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah. But this is the thing that’s kind of frustrating with her, like already the fact that they would disagree about, she would disagree about finances, is so rogue in this time that she would even dare to have such strong opinions and she just irritated everyone at court, you know, and by the end you have very hostile factions gathering in the wings and they’re led by all the courtiers who had lost influence in Anne Boleyn’s time. Because, like, it was basically her family and Thomas Cromwell.’
Artie Mead: ‘You sounded like you’re about to cry.’
Anna Moris: ‘Sorry!’
Artie Mead: ‘So emotional talking about Anne Boleyn.’
Anna Moris: ‘No, I didn’t—But basically, I think Anne was screwed when she lost her ally Thomas Cromwell. And he agrees for the sale of the monastic properties. And once she lost Cromwell, you basically have her family crumbling. And Anne was arrested on the 2nd of May, 1536, taken by barge to the Tower of London and—’
Artie Mead: ‘Put on trial for charges of adultery, incest, and high treason. So she was basically accused of having affairs with multiple men, including court musician, Mark Smeaton, and also her brother George Boleyn, but it is—Historians largely agree that these charges were trumped up.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, yeah, yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And all the men she was accused of adultery with were enemies of Cromwell. So I think that kind of speaks—’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, yeah for sure. For sure. But yeah, so it was obviously a bit of a sham trial because it was also like all her enemies—’
Artie Mead: ‘Including a jury of peers, including her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk.’
Anna Moris: ‘Because he even tried to save his own skin. That’s how it worked. And she was executed on the 19th of May, 1536. And she’s buried in the chapel of St. Peter in the tower.’
Artie Mead: ‘I was there just a couple of days ago.’
Anna Moris: ‘At her grave?’
Artie Mead: ‘And I saw where she got executed in the Tower of London. But, yeah, it’s reported that she was pretty dignified.’
Anna Moris: ‘I mean, the only last, you know, favour that Henry granted her was he actually brought in or the small mercy of dying at the hands of a very skilled swordsman. So she was actually beheaded by a very skilled swordsman with a very sharp sword. Yeah, from France, rather than a blunt axe.’
Artie Mead: ‘Who’d been brought over specially for this. So yeah, that was a mercy because, you know, being executed, beheaded with an axe, it could be a messy affair, but with a sword, it was usually clean and quick. So it was actually quite a—it was an act of mercy for Anne Boleyn. I mean, one has to—I mean, this is really crazy. I mean, I don’t think people realize how crazy this would have been at the time, for a queen to have been beheaded by her husband. Like, this really is crazy.’
Anna Moris: ‘This is mediaeval shit. Like, this is—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, but this had never happened before, a queen being beheaded.’
Anna Moris: ‘Really?’
Artie Mead: ‘No.’
Anna Moris: ‘No way.’
Artie Mead: ‘No. Like, this is, like, honestly, this was unheard of.’
Anna Moris: ‘It’s also after that, her name was never mentioned. So if we speak of her reputation, she is seen as a witch. She’s also effectively written out of the history books for the rest of Henry VIII’s reign. Her name was literally chiselled out of the fabric of Hampton Court.’
Artie Mead: ‘Really?’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah. And replaced with the badges and banners of Jane Seymour. So yeah—I mean, yeah, she’s seen as a kind of heretical seductress.’
Artie Mead: ‘But it’s hard to overstate impact on England. She was the mother of Elizabeth I, one of England’s most famous monarchs. She played a key role in the English Reformation. And yeah, I guess, you know—’
Anna Moris: ‘I mean, this is where so when Elizabeth I got to the throne, she was the one who actually reinstated Anne’s reputation, partly.’
Artie Mead: ‘I mean, I would do that.’
Anna Moris: ‘So, set of portraits were created, which—this is thing, we don’t know if they were based on original likeness, revealing kind of a very slender necked young woman with dark eyes and definitely like an air of intellect. I mean, then after that, she was seen as a very pious reformer by the reformists who—that was kind of the spin that was put on things because remember, she is also seen as partly responsible of, you know, bringing the true faith to England. But all in all, we cannot, you know, really doubt her moral character as lacking, maybe.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, I mean, as I said, the—she just shouldn’t have been queen because all of the qualities she had were great for a mistress, but were not suited to a queen consort.’
Anna Moris: ‘I mean, even as a mistress, to be honest, she was a bit too much.’
Artie Mead: ‘So basically, she sowed the seeds of her own downfall.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yes. Oh, completely and she, I mean, arguably she could say that she was also the victim of court faction.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Moris: ‘And Henry’s kind of paranoid suspicion and dynastic ambition, this all came into it. But at the end of the day, she was later described as a witch and she had a sixth finger and a large cyst under her chin. There was this whole, afterwards, I think Henry’s kind of covering his back by, you know, saying he was almost bewitched.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Moris: ‘And, you know, that’s definitely something that we see. But interestingly, no matter, Henry VIII always has a backup and it was about three months before the execution of Anne that Jane Seymour catches the attention of Henry VIII. Coincidence, I think.’
Artie Mead: ‘I know. Well—so Jane Seymour, she was born around 1508 at Walthall in Wiltshire, the daughter of Sir John Seymour and Marjorie Wentworth. So she came from a respected noble family, the Seymours, and she had quite a, compared to Anne Boleyn, pretty standard education for a woman. She was educated in traditional domestic skills rather than—’
Anna Moris: ‘She was—Yeah, absolutely. So she was a fantastic seamstress and embroiderer. She had qualities in her education which were way more suited to women at the time.’
Artie Mead: ‘Definitely.’
Anna Moris: ‘She was not particularly good at reading, writing, apparently, but she was fantastic in terms of womanly—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Moris: ‘Womanly—what’s the word?’
Artie Mead: ‘Womanly endeavours.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yes.’
Artie Mead: ‘And she was noted for her gentle and reserved manner, which obviously contrasted sharply with that of Anne Boleyn’s. Well, Anne Boleyn’s more assertive personality, which, yeah, which I think to Henry just seemed more attractive because he realised with Anne that he had this, you know, very, kind of—this firebrand. And he didn’t want that. He realised that he wanted someone more kind of diminutive and more submissive.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah. It was Polydore Vergil who actually commented that she was a woman of the utmost charm, kind of in both character and appearance. She was regarded as meek, gentle, simple, chaste. And she had a very large family. And this—Henry saw the potential in this, making her thought to kind of be suitable to have a lot of children.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘If you had a very, very large family.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. And I think that’s partly what drew Henry to her. They started courtship, yeah, obviously in early 1536. And then you obviously had Anne Boleyn’s downfall and execution in May 1536. And that paved the way for Jane’s rise. And they married on the 30th of May. So just 11 days after Anne’s execution.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah. And for sure, I mean, it’s actually—I mean, she’s definitely seen as very conservative compared to Anne Boleyn. But this is also down to her being maid of honour in the court of Catherine of Aragon. Now we already know Catherine of Aragon was very pious, very traditional, very strict and formal, and this is something that Jane Seymour has as well. So in terms of, you know, I think it definitely would have been, Jane Seymour would have been surprised at the Queen’s—sorry, the King’s, you know, the King making moves on her because as Queen, Jane is said to be strict and formal, like she learned from Catherine of Aragon, and her loyalty to Catherine of Aragon continues throughout her short reign or short marriage.’
Artie Mead: ‘Because she reconciles Henry to Mary.’
Anna Moris: ‘So Mary had been expelled from court and it was—so this is the thing. Historians see, yes, she is meek and—’
Artie Mead: ‘Meek and mild.’
Anna Moris: ‘Meek and mild. However there are two occasions in the reign slash marriage of Jane Seymour where you see that maybe she did have a very strong moral compass which makes her have an impact. The first one is her defence of Mary the First. I think it is in loyalty to Catherine of Aragon that she—she’s obviously not responsible for Anne Boleyn’s execution, but she would not have felt morally guilty to go against Anne Boleyn because of what Anne Boleyn did to Catherine of Aragon. So her marrying Henry, in her mind, it was probably a defence of Catherine of Aragon, and she is the one who brings—, who begs Henry VIII to invite Mary the First back to court and actually Elizabeth the First is then the one who is expelled.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘So this was—this is one example of Jane Seymour taking action. This is one example of Jane Seymour, you know, flexing her authority a little bit. The second example is actually where Jane fails miserably and that is, she asks for pardons for the participants of the pilgrimage of grace, which was a Catholic uprising in the north. Now, this is the time where the dissolution of the monasteries is massively taking place, and Jane Seymour, who grew up in a very Catholic household with Catherine of Aragon, asks for pardons for the participants of this Catholic rebellion known as the pilgrimage of grace. And Henry VIII completely rejects this and reminds her of the fate of her predecessor when she meddled in his affairs.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘So Jane Seymour is shut down and that is the only other time that we actually experience her stepping up, going to the king, getting rejected, and then very wisely, I think, calling it a day with her meddling.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, realising where her place was and not sticking her head above the parapet. But, yeah, she was known for her kindness, her modesty, and traditional virtues. And when she became Queen, she took the motto bound to obey and serve.’
Anna Moris: ‘Very interesting if we compare all the Queen’s mottos.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘It’s really interesting. Also, she banned the French fashions that Anne Boleyn put in.’
Artie Mead: ‘Really?’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And she also advocated for the restoration of Mary to the line of succession and, yeah, maintained a conservative and modest court in contrast to obviously Anne Boleyn’s more lavish and reformist tendencies.’
Anna Moris: ‘For sure.’
Artie Mead: ‘So—but obviously, her big break comes in October 1537, when she gives birth to Henry’s long desired male heir.’
Anna Moris: ‘Finally.’
Artie Mead: ‘So he has finally got his male heir, and I think this obviously would probably endear her to him more than any of his wives.’
Anna Moris: ‘This secures her. And actually, do you know what, this secures her legacy. Because at the end of the day, what is she known for? She—’
Artie Mead: ‘Giving him a son.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, Edward, Edward VI. That’s what she’s known for. And very sadly, she dies 12 days after childbirth.’
Artie Mead: ‘Just 12 days.’
Artie Mead: ‘Now, Henry is seen to have genuine mourning for Jane.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. So—And it’s because the birth was long. It was very long, wasn’t it? It was very complicated.’
Anna Moris: ‘’Cause apparently, I think the baby was in the wrong is—is in the wrong—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And they considered—’
Anna Moris: ‘Direction?’
Artie Mead: ‘In breech position or whatever it’s called. And they did actually consider doing a caesarean, but back then caesareans often killed the mother.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, it was a choice between the mother, Henry would have to choose between Jane or the baby.’
Anna Moris: ‘I wonder what he’ll choose.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, I mean, had he known it was the son, he probably would have chosen the son. But yeah, so yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘She died 24th of October 1537 at Hampton Court and she is the wife that Henry is buried with.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. So—and obviously, I think that’s got to be with—from the fact that he—because she gave him his, you know, much desired son. He probably obviously felt the most like love and like loyalty to her.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And so—yeah, remember this is sort of true love. And yeah, they’re buried together in St. George’s Chapel at Windsor Castle as per Henry’s wishes. So yeah, I mean Jane Seymour is really kind of often epitomised, and was epitomised by Henry VIII and others as the epitome of the perfect queen and wife. But yeah, obviously their marriage was cut short after just 17 months of marriage, she was snatched away from Henry by puerperal fever, which was a postnatal infection that women often had immediately after birth.’
Anna Moris: ‘She was actually the only one of Henry’s wives to receive a Queen’s funeral. So an official kind of funeral in St. George’s Chapel. And it was actually her stepdaughter Mary that acted as chief mourner. I think it’s called, I don’t know why I think it’s called chief mourner.’
Artie Mead: ‘No. And Henry didn’t go, I don’t think.’
Anna Moris: ‘He was—I’m sure—’
Artie Mead: ‘He was definitely the—she was definitely the one he also had the most mourning for.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah. I mean he wore black for the next three months. And then there was actually a break between his wives ’cause he didn’t get married for two years after that.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘So it’s a big break for Henry.’
Artie Mead: ‘Big break.’
Anna Moris: ‘But, you know, historians have speculated she was his favourite wife because he gave birth to a male heir and was buried next to her in 1547 when he died. But—Yeah, I mean, she also brought huge advancement to her family, so if you actually think of her brothers, Thomas and Edward, they play a massive part in the—they essentially rule in England when her—when Edward comes to the throne. They use that, her brothers, Thomas and Edward, use their—her, kind of reputation, her memory, to improve their own fortunes. So yeah, the young, the young Edward, Edward VI, Edward, Uncle Edward, set himself up as Lord Protector.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, that’s it.’
Anna Moris: ‘Lord Protector and the de facto ruler of the kingdom. So from that respect, she does have a bit of a lasting legacy because her memory is used by her brothers to further themselves.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. So, I mean, let’s finish by just kind of summarising each of the wives, each of those first three wives and how—what their legacy is and how—what Henry thought of them. Now, Catherine, I think was the most respected.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘They were married for the longest amount of time. And like Henry had said, had he gotten heir, they probably would have stayed married.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah, I mean arguably, I would say that’s the case with Anne Boleyn as well in terms of—what would have saved her is, I think, 1536, the son wouldn’t have been stillborn. That would have saved the marriage.’
Artie Mead: ‘And then in terms of Anne Boleyn, I would say that she—Henry’s love for her was the most passionate, but also you’ve got to remember that he literally moved heaven and earth to marry her.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘So I think that has got to account for something. I think he really did love her as well.’
Anna Moris: ‘I think Anne Boleyn actually had the biggest impact.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, on him, and the country.’
Anna Moris: ‘On English history.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, definitely.’
Anna Moris: ‘Anne Boleyn has the biggest impact on English history. Jane Seymour doesn’t because, ironically, her son also had a very strong—’
Artie Mead: ‘Was a bit of a fail. Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘He also flopped.’
Artie Mead: ‘Sorry, flopped.’
Anna Moris: ‘Sorry. So actually, Anne Boleyn, whether good or bad, had firstly the biggest impact on English history. Secondly, her daughter had the longest Tudor reign and—’
Artie Mead: ‘Is remembered as one of the greatest.’
Anna Moris: ‘Is remembered as one of the—as the first great queen of England.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘Elizabeth the first is a hundred percent seen as the great queen of England. And so, Anne Boleyn, biggest impact. Catherine of Aragon, the—probably the most genuine marriage. For sure. And Jane Seymour gives him what he wants.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Moris: ‘So short, I think short term—’
Artie Mead: ‘Would you say most loved because of that?’
Anna Moris: ‘I mean, it’s hard to say. Yes. Fry Henry.’
Artie Mead: ‘Most affection. Affection. Yeah, affection.’
Anna Moris: ‘Would you count 17? What was it?’
Artie Mead: ‘17 months.’
Anna Moris: ‘17 months of that kind of affection versus like 20 years with Catherine of Aragon.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, that’s true.’
Anna Moris: ‘It depends. I mean, I think short term, Jane Seymour had the biggest effect because she—Henry died knowing he had an heir. Long term, Anne Boleyn had the biggest impact on Henry because of—’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, the effect than she had on—’
Anna Moris: ‘The last 500 years.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Moris: ‘And in terms of a, probably a stereotypical wanted marriage of those days, both politically and emotionally, Catherine of Aragon.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes. So, okay, if we had to pick our favourite of those wives, what would you say?’
Anna Moris: ‘I would say Anne Boleyn because I’m known as Anna Boleyn.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, I would also say mine, Anna Berlin, Anna Berlin.’
Anna Moris: ‘I’m Anna Boleyn or Anna Berlin.’
Artie Mead: ‘But no, I would also say Anne Boleyn because she is—’
Anna Moris: ‘And ’cause I love Hever Castle so much.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. I need to go, oh, can we go there together and make lots of videos? But yeah, I would also say Anne Boleyn, I think, because it’s really quite hard to overstate her impact, not just on Henry and how he really wanted to marry her, but then through that, the effect that she had on English, the course of English history.’
Anna Moris: ‘Yeah. I also rate like a well educated woman because I’m a terrible sewer, so.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly.’
Anna Moris: ‘Jane Seymour does nothing for me.’
Artie Mead: ‘And I think—Well, no, and also because Anne was really, I think she must be quite a feminist figure because I think she knew what she was doing and she was playing Henry.’
Anna Moris: ‘Then she got beheaded.’
Artie Mead: ‘Because she was, you know. Yeah, she got beheaded. Yeah, that’s true. But—okay, that’s sort of everything. Do you have anything else you want to add?’
Anna Moris: ‘No, I think we’ve quickly covered. Main points of our first three queens in our series.’
Artie Mead: ‘Our three queens.’
Anna Moris: ‘Queens.’
Artie Mead: ‘And we’ll be doing the next episode about the break with Rome and then the episode after that will be about the last three wives of Henry VIII. So, cool. Okay, guys. Well, thank you for listening or watching. Yeah, it’s been a pleasure as always, my darling.’
Anna Moris: ‘Thanks, Queen.’
Artie Mead: ‘Thank you, my Queen. And yeah, I will—we will see you guys very soon. Bye.’
Anna Moris: ‘See you later.’
Artie Mead: ‘Bye.’
Anna Moris: ‘Bye.’