The Tudors (Part 5): The Break with Rome (with Anna Morris)
Artie Mead: ‘Hi everyone, welcome back to The History Buff with your resident history buff, Artie, and recurring history buff, Anna Morris.
Anna Morris: ‘Hi, everyone.
Anna Morris: ‘And you’re back with our series, The Tudors: A Real Game of Thrones. And we’re now back with the fifth instalment, which is about the break with Rome.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, it’s really flying by, you know, one minute Henry Tudor’s on the Battle of Bosworth and the next.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. His son.’
Anna Morris: ‘A huge European shift, something that changes the face of history.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And that’s actually, I think, something that a lot of people forget is that it actually wasn’t just England, that it was actually something that reverberated all around Europe. But yeah—so obviously, yeah—I mean, this episode, we’re going to be talking about an event which was pretty seismic. I would say that it was probably one of the most transformative periods in English history.’
Anna Morris: ‘I compare it to modern-day Brexit.’
Artie Mead: ‘Very good.’
Anna Morris: ‘I wrote an article on the similarities between the break with Rome and Brexit.’
Artie Mead: ‘Really? Where can the listeners or watchers find this article?’
Anna Morris: ‘I’ll link it below.’
Artie Mead: ‘Ah, okay, so—Guys.’
Anna Morris: ‘I need more readers; I’ve got, like, four.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, I mean, yeah—I mean, basically. Okay, basically— So, it led to the establishment of the Church of England, altering the religious, political, and social landscape of the nation. And then, obviously, of course, it set the stage for centuries of religious conflict and the eventual rise of Protestantism in England. And I mean, I guess the kind of root cause of it all was Henry’s marriage to Catherine of Aragon, which he wanted to dissolve. So, I mean, obviously, they married in 1509 and Catherine was originally his brother Arthur’s widow. But by the 1520s, the marriage was strained.
I mean, obviously, we’ve talked a lot about this before, you know, the first three wives and the episode before that, but that marriage became strained because of the couple’s failure to produce a male heir. And they only had one surviving child, Mary, but no male successor. So that obviously worried Henry about the future of the Tudor dynasty. And so—I mean, yeah, that is, I guess, what you could say was really the root cause of it all.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. So, definitely the rise of Protestantism. So it definitely began prior to all of this. There were forerunners of the Protestant Reformation: Pierre Valdo in, I think, the 12th century, John Wycliffe in England, Jan Hus, obviously William Tyndale as well. So William Tyndale was a very prominent influence, apparently, on Henry’s—
Artie Mead: ‘Influencer.’
Anna Morris: ‘’Influencer.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Big influencer.’
Artie Mead: Yeah, big Protestant influencer. Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘But, so there’s obviously been, like, a school of thought, always protesting, you know, the Roman Catholic Church, and there’s, you know, there’s definitely been waves of new thinking and definitely prominent figures throughout history who have mostly all been burned at the stake. But before that, you know, wrote, you know, wrote at the time very controversial scripts or attacks on the church because the Catholic Church at the time was arguably in pieces. Now, obviously, there’s another school of thought that, you know, the Catholic Reformation actually started before the Protestant Reformation. But at the time, it was hugely corrupt, which actually really affected someone called Martin Luther, who I think—’
Artie Mead: ‘Mar-k-tin.’
Anna Morris: ‘Mar-k-tin. Martin Luther.’
Artie Mead: ‘Martin Luther. But, just to give a bit of background. Obviously, yeah, the Catholic Church is what dominated. Before that, Protestantism didn’t exist. Catholicism was the dominant religion in Europe.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. So what we can, so actually calling it Protestantism at this time is actually too early. They—It was an evangelical school of thought, which later became Protestantism. And it’s basically this idea that strips back a lot of catechism and, you know, is based very much off the literal word of the Bible. So Martin Luther was a monk, and he had a particular problem with indulgences. Now, indulgences were, Martin Luther described them as cheapened grace rather than requiring grace by repentance So basically, you could buy indulgences off priests to guarantee your way into heaven. So, you know—’
Artie Mead: ‘When you’d sinned.’
Anna Morris: ‘When you’d sinned, so you’d say— yeah, you could buy your way into heaven.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exacly. Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘So Martin Luther, a actually quite devout Catholic, in fact a monk, he spoke against the indulgences. And there was a huge rise of indulgences because, at the time, Pope Leo X was building St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, obviously a hugely expensive project. So he actually encouraged the clergy to sell indulgences; they would be paid back to Rome, and he would fund the building of this beautiful basilica with that.’
Artie Mead: ‘That’s kind of crazy.’
Anna Morris: ‘It is. Yeah. It’s really crazy. And so Martin Luther pinned 95 theses, so 95, what’s the word, disagreements, mostly centred around indulgences, but he pinned it to the doors of the Schlosskirche, the castle church in Wittenberg on October 31st, 1517. Now, in this, he also compared the Pope to the Whore of Babylon. But other than that, I think his attacks were quite fair.’
Artie Mead: ‘But, I mean, do you know he actually visited Rome in 1510? And he was just—he was very—and the reason why I think he was so—’
Anna Morris: ‘He was appalled.’
Artie Mead: ‘He was appalled. Yeah, He was very disappointed by what he saw with all the corruption. And in fact, he was so appalled that he later wrote, “If there is a hell, then Rome is built over it.”’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. He said, he called it a cesspit of sin. So that obviously—Well, it does—I know.’
Anna Morris: ‘I would love that.’
Artie Mead: ‘But basically, yeah. Well, because we basically live in Sin City anyway, but so we would be very much at home. But yeah, so, you know, he was appalled at the vice and debauchery he experienced, and not just among the laity, but also among the clergy and even going as far as the Pope.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. So this is what’s going on in Europe at the time. There is—Yeah, Martin Luther is gaining a following. There’s huge backlash against his 95 theses, one of them being Henry VIII, who wrote a defence of the Catholic Church. That even gave him the title Defender of the Faith. And Henry is hugely faithful, a devout Catholic. He heard Mass three times a day. He used to enjoy three things: hunting, being entertained by his jester, and reading theology, is apparently what he loved to do. And this just being said kind of highlights the momentum of what’s about to happen. So how do we see Henry going from Defender of the Faith? Wind forward 10–15 years: England is isolated, cut off from Rome, Henry is supreme ruler of the Catholice— of the Church of England, sorry. And he has been excommunicated by the Pope.’
Artie Mead: ‘And that’s exactly what happened to Martin Luther. Martin Luther was accused of heresy because he was the one who, you know, yeah, nailed these 95 theses to the wall of the church in Wittenberg, and because of that, you know, there was lots of outrage in Rome. And he was actually excommunicated and, you know, faced condemnation from the Catholic Church. But I think, unlike the people that you were just, that you talked about beforehand, his ideas then really took hold and they spread very quickly. But it was partly because of the printing press.’
Anna Morris: ‘This was—Yeah, literally, I was about to say the printing press. And also, he later wrote in the vernacular. So this obviously made a part of the kind of evangelical way of thinking, was that the Bible is, you know, the truth and the truth should be available to the layman. And it was this idea of cutting out priests, like the priests have no authority; your authority is straight to God. So, then there obviously became the rise, I think it was—I think it was Jan Hus. The reason he was excommunicated and burned was because he tried to get an English Bible circulating. He translated the Bible, which, at the time, was hugely blasphemous. So, there were lots of kind of factors at the time, massively the printing press, because obviously they printed these 95 theses and distributed them all over the states, all over the Holy Roman Empire. And yeah, that definitely led to a huge following and a massive drama—Not drama, what’s the word?
Artie Mead: Yeah, I mean—
Anna Morris: ‘Outbreak.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, outbreak. I mean, Protestantism began to take hold in, you know, various parts of Europe. And, you know, it was crazy because, up until that point, the authority of the Pope had gone unchecked. And now, you know, yeah, the challenging of the Pope’s authority and of, just in general, the Catholic doctrine. So it was essentially, you know, questioning the natural order of things in a way. So it was, you know, it was a very unsettling time. And, you know, in England, it all came from, you know, the King’s desire to get a divorce from his wife.
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. So this is obviously what’s really interesting, that obviously Henry had been granted papal dispensation in the first place from Pope Julius II. Now—’
Artie Mead: ‘For when?’
Anna Morris: ‘From—so he was granted to marry Catherine of Aragon.’
Artie Mead: ‘That’s it, yeah’.
Anna Morris: ‘Because there is a chapter in Leviticus, which says you can’t marry your—’
Artie Mead: ‘Brother’s widow.’
Anna Morris: ‘Your brother’s widow. And there’s a chapter in Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy, that says you actually should. So Julius II said it was allowed. And then as Henry, so as Henry got as—you know, Catherine didn’t have any sons, or as his son was taken, Henry, who was hugely religious, actually the day his son was born, he went on a long pilgrimage. So then he started to think, maybe I’m being punished because Julius II had no authority or was wrong to grant me something that is clearly not allowed. So he saw the lack of sense.’
Artie Mead: ‘Thought God was punishing him.’
Anna Morris: ‘Thought God was punishing him because it was his right, as a King, to have a dynasty. And if you don’t have a son, you are being punished by God.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, it was his job to secure that dynasty, and him, by not having a son, was not doing his main job.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. Absolutely. And if you believe in the divine right of kings, then something is going wrong here. So he actually said he was being punished by God. The dispensation should never have been allowed. And Henry requested an annulment from the Pope at the time, Clement XII.’
Artie Mead: ‘And whilst he was, you know, kind of not so happy about the fact that he had no son from Catherine of Aragon, his eye fell on Anne Boleyn, who we talked about in the last episode. Lady-in-waiting to Catherine of Aragon. So caught Henry’s eye and Henry fell madly in love with her. But she actually refused to become his mistress, insisting on marriage, which only intensified Henry’s desire to annul his marriage to Catherine.’
Anna Morris: ‘So yeah, obviously, then he commissions his top guy, Thomas Wolsey, to start making enquiries into the marriage, his marriage with Catherine of Aragon. So obviously he asks for an annulment, and this is really bad timing. Because, actually, it is not uncommon at this time for the Pope to annul a marriage. For example, Louis XII had his marriage annulled. Even Henry, and that was in, even Henry’s sister, Margaret Tudor, the Dowager Queen of Scotland, had her marriage to the Earl of Angus annulled by Pope Clement II in March 1527.
So the year Henry asks for an annulment, his sister is granted an annulment. So this is—he actually went to Rome. Sorry, he sent his William Knight, he sent William Knight to Rome, and he is very confident because William Knight goes with two Papal bulls looking for a signature. Now, the first one is—yeah, he cast away pretty quickly. This one asks for Henry to take Anne Boleyn as a second wife to keep Catherine of Aragon. But this idea is obviously falls through very quickly. Now, the second Papal Bull doesn’t ask for—doesn’t necessarily even ask for permission to marry Anne.
It states that in the event that Henry’s marriage to Catherine is invalid, he can marry a woman with whom he has an affinity. Now, interestingly, Catherine—he doesn’t, in his head he has this confidence, I will get annulled, therefore I need to now ask for permission to marry a woman with whom I have affinity, and he had already slept with Anne Boleyn’s sister. So he doesn’t want, under canon law, this would class as incest, and he doesn’t want to repeat, obviously, he’s looking to annul his marriage with Catherine because it is incest. So he’s covering his, kind of, his base with his marriage to Anne Boleyn without even being allowed to marry Anne Boleyn yet. Because he’s that confident he’s going to get annulled. His annulment, sorry.’
Artie Mead: ‘He’s going to get annulled himself. “Annul me! Annul me! Not Hermione, not you, me!”’
Anna Morris: ‘However, his timing really sucks because, like I said, his sister was granted an annulment in March 1527. His representative, William Knight, arrives in November—September 1527. And unfortunately, on the 6th of May, there was something called the Sack of Rome. Now, this was where—so this is kind of the Papal States, there was a capture of Rome by mutinous troops of—’
Artie Mead: ‘Charles V.’
Anna Morris: ‘Charles V. Exactly. And these troops were made up of, you know, mercenaries.’
Artie Mead: ‘Who’s, by the way, the Emperor of—’
Anna Morris: ‘Holy—’
Artie Mead: ‘Sorry, the—of the Holy Roman Empire, who is the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘Which is the most powerful state in Europe at the time.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. It’s a huge, massive land. It’s like his control stretched from, you know, the very western point of Spain across the whole of Europe. And his troops actually rebelled, and it resulted in the Pope being imprisoned. Now, Charles V was the nephew of Catherine of Aragon and obviously did not want to see his aunt subjected to such humiliation. He was not going to allow the Pope to grant it.’
Artie Mead: ‘Which she was, though. I have to say I feel sorry for Catherine of Aragon, she had to endure a lot of humiliation when Henry was courting Anne Boleyn.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, but I also think, I mean, at the beginning, it wouldn’t have been that deep because, you know, I mean, he would have had—’
Artie Mead: ‘So she would have looked at him and been like, it’s okay, honey, it’s not that deep.’
Anna Morris: ‘Well, she probably thought she was just a mistress for a while.’
Artie Mead: ‘And she was used to seeing him, she was used to seeing him with mistresses.’
Anna Morris: ‘Of course. And Anne Boleyn’s sister, and he’s had babies with, like, loads of other mistresses at this point.’
Artie Mead: ‘But she probably just smiles and tends not to—just look the other way.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, obviously. But this is completely normal for men actually at that time. But no one would have thought it was taken this far. Remember, this guy just got the Defender of the Faith title seven years ago from the Pope. So now, no one thought it would go this far. But yeah, so the Pope is imprisoned by Catherine of Aragon’s nephew, and then begins a very long, slow slog. Like the Pope, who doesn’t want to say—His hands are tied, you know, he’s trapped in a, he’s actually locked up in Rome. And he’s then like, “I’m going to send the Papal Legate to England.” The Papal Legate is then, it takes him, like, months to arrive. And the whole thing is very—this long, slow process now, for two years, stretches out back and forth. Catherine of Aragon gets, you know, denies any claim, whips out the original papal dispensation from Julius, then it goes back to Rome. Then it just—it stretches and stretches until you get to 1529.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, and by then, it’s already become the King’s Great Matter.’
Anna Morris: ‘It’s called then the King’s Great Matter, but no progress has been made. So it’s two years of—’
Artie Mead: ‘Bugger all.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And it’s in that year that it leads to the fall of Henry’s chief minister, Thomas Wolsey.’
Anna Morris: ‘Well, Henry gets really impatient with Wolsey because he hasn’t been able to achieve anything.’
Artie Mead: ‘And the thing about—No, but what’s crazy about this is Thomas Wolsey had been such a good servant to him, and they had been good friends.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, they were obsessed with each other.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. No, but also, Wolsey had been a really good chief minister, very competent. He was very clever. He was very—well, he was just very competent.’
Anna Morris: ‘Also the papal legate, like he was the Pope’s representative in England. So this is the thing—I think Henry kind of underestimated, how difficult it would be getting this annulment. And I think a lot of it honestly does come down to the might of Charles V.’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, no. And also Henry’s passion for Anne Boleyn, because he would not have pushed it that far had he not wanted to marry her that badly.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, he at this point was—I think this is where the book—I think Anne Boleyn then shoves the book The Obedience of a Christian Man, by William Tyndale into Henry’s lap. You see a shift in his mentality.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Over the two years, the bigger his frustration got at not being able to—at being so—it became very apparent that his influence is limited. That, at the end of the day, he can’t always get what he wants because of international influence, and he doesn’t like the idea that his power is so limited, and that he can’t do what he wantsbecause, at the end of the day—’
Artie Mead: ‘He’s meant to be—’
Anna Morris: ‘Everyone, they answer to Rome.’
Artie Mead: ‘Oh, yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘At the end of the day, he answers to Rome.’
Artie Mead: ‘But he thinks he should be the one that everyone answers to.’
Anna Morris: ‘For sure, and that’s where you start getting—where Thomas Wolsey ends up getting sacked, because at the end of the day, Thomas Wolsey is a cardinal, he’s not—he’s not, kind of—In the strictest sense, he’s definitely not a moral man if you look at his, you know, what he and Henry used to get up to. But he’s not the right—he wouldn’t have come to that decision “We break with the Church.” He was not, as a cardinal, as papal legate, he was not—he was radical enough. He was still a Catholic.’
Artie Mead: ‘He was always sort of slightly saying, “Oh, are you sure you want to do that? Blah, blah, blah, this, that, whatever.”’
Anna Morris: ‘It was more he was trying any means necessary to get around actually being like, “No, we are breaking from the Church.”’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘And the idea for him to be communicated is, you know, something he wouldn’t even consider. So he ends up for two years going round and round in circles.’
Artie Mead: ‘In circles, yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘You have Catherine of Aragon writing to her nephew, you have absolutely denying any claims. Then you have these legates going across Europe, and then I think—and then the—and then the Pope died. And then you have to start the whole process again.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, the fact of the matter is Thomas Wolsey, he failed to persuade the Pope. That led to his downfall and actual arrest in 1529. But then he died in 1530, before he could be tried for treason. He was actually—Wolsey was summoned back to London, but on his way back to London, he actually died. So—but you could—it’s obvious that had he actually then got to London, he would have been tried and executed for treason. That’s, of course, what was going to happen. So he was then succeeded as Lord Chancellor by someone called Thomas More, who was, yeah, this humanist lawyer. And he was actually initially supportive of Henry but, a bit like Wolsey, although I think Wolsey never voiced this. He was opposed to the break with Rome and Henry’s—and he was actually also opposed to Henry’s marriage to Anne Boleyn, crucially.’
Anna Morris: ‘So when Henry realised he wasn’t getting anywhere with the annulment, he commissioned some very kind of humanist scholars at the University of Cambridge. Now, Cambridge University is historically more liberal and kind of a school of new thought, whereas Oxford is arguably more traditional. So the scholars at Cambridge included, you know, Thomas More, Thomas Cranmer, and Thomas Cromwell. Now, it was More and Cranmer who actually managed to—they were theologians—they managed to, from a theological point of view, build a case against Catherine of Aragon, against the lack of papal dispensation, basically arguing that Henry’s marriage to Catherine was not true. It should be annulled on theological reasons, going back to them finding a passage in Leviticus.’
Artie Mead: ‘Leviticus 20-21.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. And also, at the same time, Henry is investing in William Tyndale’s Obedience of a Christian Man, which basically states that Christian rulers ought to govern themselves. This very much influenced Henry in declaring the Act of Supremacy because, you know, his Cambridge lawyers were then also arguing that England was more of an empire, and as someone who leads an empire, no external force on earth is above you.’
Artie Mead: ‘Power over you.’
Anna Morris: ‘Has power over you.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘So if England is an empire, and Christian rulers ought to govern themselves, then that technically plays on Henry’s self-worth or arrogance, but also it really highlights to him that he is a king of an empire, and actually—’
Artie Mead: ‘He should be the supreme being.’
Anna Morris: ‘He should be the supreme being, but it also highlights, he always has been the supreme being. That it’s actually wrong of him to have to report externally or that anyone else on earth has influence over him and his realm.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, and it’s this that he tries to kind of get through to the Pope with Thomas More, but Thomas More refuses to acknowledge Henry as the supreme head of the English Church, which then led to his downfall and his execution in 1535. And so after him, he was replaced by Thomas Cromwell. So Thomas Cromwell was, again, a lawyer who came from, you know, a very humble background. He was the son of, I think—’
Anna Morris: ‘A blacksmith.’
Artie Mead: ‘A blacksmith. Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘He was the son of a blacksmith. Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘And he does actually manage to engineer the break with Rome by pushing the Great Matter through Parliament. Because the thing about Cromwell is that he was elected a member of Parliament, and he then drafted the legislation that severed England’s ties with Rome.’
Anna Morris: ‘And there’s so much legislation. I think it starts in 1530, when there was an appeal to scholars and universities, the House of Commons drafts Supplication Against the Ordinaries, and there was Submission of the Clergy where the clergy basically had to—this is where Sir Thomas More resigned—when Henry issued this decree that the clergy were all wrong to serve the Pope. And in the same submission, they were also granted pardon by Henry, saying, “You have been serving the wrong, you know, the wrong—’
Artie Mead: ‘Person. Entity. Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘”Your loyalties have been with Rome. However, if you sign this, you are admitting fault, and this way, you will—this prevents execution or enforcement of any canons in England.”’
Artie Mead: ‘It basically—if you don’t sign it, you’re a traitor.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘So, well, I mean, I have to say, Thomas Cromwell was very clever, and he was the one—yeah, who steers it all through Parliament.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. I mean, it’s an incredible feat.’
Artie Mead: ‘Incredible feat. He was a very skilled politician. And he, you know—and thanks to his skill in shepherding this legislation through Parliament, he then establishes Henry, obviously, as the head of the Church of England. So how does he do this? Yeah, as we mentioned in multiple different Acts. So Parliament was called, in 1529, to specifically deal with Henry’s so-called Great Matter, which is his divorce from Catherine of Aragon.’
Anna Morris: ‘There’s a very interesting—just on the point—there’s a very interesting clause or document that he drafts up, which is the Act in Restraint of Appeals—’
Artie Mead: ‘Of Appeals, yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Of 1533, which basically makes it illegal for someone to—’
Artie Mead: ‘Appeal to the Pope.’
Anna Morris: ‘To take cases to Rome.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes.’
Anna Morris: ‘Which means that when Catherine of Aragon appealed against what was happening to her, to Charles V and the Pope, and when she went to Rome, what she was doing was technically illegal because, on English soil, it was from that point illegal to do that. So not only did it recognise England’s national sovereignty—i.e., England is an empire—it also removes, you know, any kind of international influence because you’re not allowed to go overseas. You’re not allowed to go to Rome. And this solves the problem of any kind of appeal against the divorce. Because the only people you could appeal to, who would say it’s wrong, is the Catholic Church.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly.’
Anna Morris: ‘And you’re not allowed to go to them. So, the Act on the Restraint of Appeals, for me, in 1533, was the real turning point.’
Artie Mead: ‘Because, yeah—’
Anna Morris: ‘It backs everyone into a corner.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, and it basically cut off the Pope’s power in England—his legal power in England. But then the, I guess you could say, the crowning piece of legislation was obviously the Act of Supremacy, which passed in 1534. And this declared Henry as the supreme head of the Church of England, which solidified England’s break with Rome. But you—I mean, you also had other acts as well. You had the Act of Succession, which required subjects to swear allegiance to Henry and Anne’s offspring as legitimate heirs.’
Anna Morris: ‘And Mary was declared a bastard.’
Artie Mead: ‘Mary was declared a—yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘Mary was declared a bastard. But yeah, there’s just a lot going on. There’s also an Act in the Restraint of Annates, which is interesting later for the—when we kind of talk about the dissolution of the monasteries. It meant that any kind of benefits or payments that would normally go to Rome. And there was a lot, because we spoke earlier about Martin Luther hating indulgences, and these, because every single penny that any church made across the world, a cut of that went to Rome. Rome was so wealthy. I mean, if you had a priest just charging to listen to your sins, and think how many times people would go to confession or ask for an indulgence or pay for a relative to get out of purgatory—that was a huge amount of money. And this forbids any kind of payment to go to Rome. So this is also a big part later in the dissolution of the monasteries.’
Artie Mead: ‘And which basically comes about because, by this point, Henry spent all the money his father painstakingly saved. His coffers are empty. And so Cromwell is searching around for ways to fill up the state coffers. And the thing is, the monasteries were very wealthy institutions. They had a lot of land, and their dissolution would provide Henry with much-needed revenue. By destroying the monasteries’ physical presence, this would embolden Henry’s position as the Supreme Head of the English Church.’
Anna Morris: ‘For sure. And also, along with the Acts, Henry could give the impression that the country was united in his decision to marry Anne Boleyn because you couldn’t speak anything bad about it. He also made a very ironic law that you can’t call the king a tyrant; you can’t wish the king death; you cannot call him—and there was a series of names you can’t call the king, which is quite ironic. Like someone demanding that you can’t call someone a tyrant—It’s a very tyrannical thing to do. But it also gave the impression that, you know, people were behind him. You know, so he’s, like, doesn’t have any opposition because you can’t oppose him. And therefore there’s—you know, obviously a lot of—he marries Anne Boleyn. Oh yeah, we should probably say he then marries Anne Boleyn.’
Artie Mead: ‘In 1533.’
Anna Morris: ‘1533. They actually had three weddings because it wasn’t until 1534 that they could have a public wedding.’
Artie Mead: ‘Because by that point, Henry was the supreme head of the Church.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, exactly.’
Artie Mead: ‘And you could say, “This is okay.”’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘But yeah—’
Anna Morris: ‘Started spending the night together in 1533.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. But Cromwell was really the centre of all of this. He was the one who oversaw the dissolution, which began in 1536, actually, when Anne Boleyn was executed and continued until 1541. And, yeah, the monasteries were systematically dismantled, and their wealth obviously then transferred to the crown. And you had loads of social and economic consequences from this. You know, you had the redistribution of monastic lands to Henry’s supporters—people who supported him in becoming the Supreme Head of the English Church, they got land, and he created this sort of new class of landowners. But then you also had the displacement of monks and nuns, many of whom were left destitute, and a lot of destruction of significant cultural and religious sites. And so, there was a lot of consequences of this. Actually, a big consequence of it is the fact that it’s how Anne Boleyn and Thomas Cromwell, who used to be allies—it’s actually one of the reasons why they fell out.
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Because Thomas Cromwell wanted to use the dissolution of the monasteries to fill Henry’s coffers, whereas Anne Boleyn wanted to use the money from the dissolution of the monasteries to fund charitable endeavours and basically, yeah, use it for charity. And it was this disagreement, which was a big part of the reason that led to Anne Boleyn’s downfall, because she got on the wrong side of Henry’s chief minister. And I mean, I think by that point, she was already kind of on the wrong side of Henry because she hadn’t provided the male heir. And so by getting on the wrong side of his chief minister, that meant that she was getting the wrong people against her.
Anna Morris: ‘And Cromwell was obviously hugely influential. For me, the like MVP of this period is Thomas Cranmer—’
Artie Mead: ‘Who was the Archbishop of Canterbury.’
Anna Morris: ‘He was probably the most radical out of Henry VIII, Thomas Cromwell, and Anne Boleyn.’
Artie Mead: ‘By the way, I love how all of these people are called Thomas.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘It’s crazy. So many Thomases.’
Artie Mead: ‘Thomas Cranmer, because he actually was—Henry did what he did, but Thomas Cranmer, I think, was a real deep believer in the idea of a sovereign England that has power over its own Church. He really pushed Protestantism as we know it during the reign of Edward. Because, you know, he did things that William Tyndale did. Bearing in mind, William Tyndale actually didn’t support the divorce of Henry and Catherine. Even though he wrote The Obedience of a Christian Man, he didn’t support the divorce between Henry and Catherine. I know Thomas Cromwell actually went to Antwerp when Tyndale was arrested there and tried to get him off, but it didn’t work.
Cranmer is also a radical theologian, and he managed to pull through all sorts of very controversial things, which he kind of holds back a little bit in Henry VIII’s reign. And then when Edward came to the throne, he really pushed for things like vernacular services, the Book of Common Prayer, kind of opening up religion to anyone. And this would have been absolutely banned at the time of Henry VIII because that was way too far for him.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. And, I mean, that’s the thing, really. At the end of the day, I mean, the break with Rome was a really seismic event, and it’s what led to England becoming a Protestant nation. Although Henry himself remained Catholic in doctrine. And, you know, it set in motion the English Reformation.’
Anna Morris: ‘For sure. I think as well, it’s—I think it’s an example of England—’
Artie Mead: ‘Exceptionalism.’
Anna Morris: ‘Exactly. Isolation as well.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘It’s an example of, you know, an early example of England setting itself really apart from mainland Europe. From—Yeah. It’s interesting, actually.’
Artie Mead: ‘It is very interesting.’
Anna Morris: ‘There’s a lot of crossover with this idea of: we don’t want foreign influence. We don’t; we are our own nation, we are our own empire, and we will do things the way thatt our sovereign wants it to be done, without any regard for any kind of external influence. And I think this definitely builds up over the next few years, over the next century, because we see attitudes of, kind of, xenophobia creeping in. I mean, if you think about how normal it was for you—’
Artie Mead: ‘Well, no. Back then, English people hated foreigners.’
Anna Morris: ‘Well, no, English people accepted Aragon, the Spanish queen, because it was very normal for you to take a member of the royal family, of another royal family, and bring them to your country. If you fast forward to when Mary marries Philip of Spain, the fear of foreigners—the fear of external, international influence in their empire is already really starting to creep in and heighten. So that’s, I think, also an interesting point.
Artie Mead: ‘It is.’
Anna Morris: ‘There is so much going on in the space of 10 years.’
Artie Mead: ‘No, exactly. And the thing is, is that the break with Rome sets the stage for so much religious conflict that would, you know, continue under Henry’s successors, especially under his daughters, Mary I and Elizabeth I, as well. But also then, further on into the Stuart dynasty,
Anna Morris: ‘James the first.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, James the first. Because he was James I… because he was James I of, like, England.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. There was James the Sixth of Scotland.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. So, so yeah. And then it continues on into the Stuart dynasty, where Guy Fawkes, a Catholic, tries to kill James I by blowing up Parliament. The Gunpowder Plot. We’re probably going to do an episode about that at some point in the future. So, yeah, I mean, you know, there’s a lot of effects from it. But also, you know, the break with Rome laid the foundation for the Church of England and the religious conflicts that would shape the nation for centuries.’
Anna Morris: ‘And across, I mean, the whole of Europe was at war. The Holy Wars continued. And actually, Charles V was running around his realms, defending the faith. But if you think about the Habsburgs, like all of their lands, they were then fighting left, right, and centre. And there was, obviously, in every state, there was definitely an uprising or some kind of, you know, feeling. There was a feeling of unease. And I think that if you think about the Italian states, the Holy Roman Empire, the wars with France, then the, you know, the rise of Calvinism in Switzerland—definitely a lot going on.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And I mean, it is—but it is just kind of crazy that Henry initiated it all because he wanted to get a divorce.’
Anna Morris: ‘So, interestingly, there is a historian, J. J. Scarisbrick, and he said—’
Artie Mead: ‘It would have happened anyway.’
Anna Morris: ‘He thinks it would have happened anyway because of Henry’s growing frustration. There is one event that happens in 1515 where Henry is said to quote something, and I can’t remember what, but he says something along the lines of, “Oh, the king—as a king, I have power and don’t answer abroad or something. I don’t answer internationally.” And J.J. Scarisbrick argues in his book, his biography of Henry, that actually Henry would have come to resent the Church—’
Artie Mead: ‘Of his own accord.’
Anna Morris: ‘Of his own accord. Now, I personally don’t know if I agree with that because it is… I mean, it took seven years, and I don’t know how much he would have wanted to separate himself from the Church if he would want to go through all of that. But—’
Artie Mead: ‘Which puts a lot of onus on Anne Boleyn, if you think that.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘Like, he really must have been desperate to marry Anne Boleyn. And I think he was. I think he was absolutely—I definitely think that Anne Boleyn was the wife that he was the most infatuated with.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, for sure.’
Artie Mead: ‘Of all of his wives, she was the one that he was the most—but it’s partly because she was very coquettish and very kind of, like—’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah, she was definitely very sexy for her time.’
Artie Mead: ‘No. No, but—’
Anna Morris: ‘French clothes—’
Artie Mead: ‘No, yeah. But as in, she—like, she didn’t sleep with him.’
Anna Morris: ‘No, yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘You know—’
Anna Morris: ‘What was the word? You just used the word “coquettish”?’
Artie Mead: ‘Is that what the word is?’
Anna Morris: ‘I don’t know. I’ve never heard that word. It’s a great word.’
Artie Mead: ‘Coquettish. It is. Well, no, maybe not coquettish. But anyway, she was very—The thing about Anne Boleyn is that she was very—she obviously either knew what she wanted or knew what she was doing because she refused to sleep with Henry. And this, I think, is what kind of drove him. So, yeah, you know, it’s crazy. You know, all of these power dynamics. And that’s why we love the Tudor dynasty and why I think the Tudor dynasty is so popular—because of these power dynamics, because of sex, because of religion, of politics, and all of this stuff.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah. And it’s all very, like—it’s all very kind of public in those days as well. Because, you know, there are so many taboo topics that are coming in. And, you know, there’s so much. I mean, you know, from the corruption of the Church to the lust of Henry to, like, the deaths of his ministers—like, so much going on.’
Artie Mead: ‘Exactly. So much.’
Anna Morris: ‘High drama.’
Artie Mead: ‘High drama. And that is why we’re doing so many episodes for you guys.’
Anna Morris: ‘It’s hard to break it down.’
Artie Mead: ‘Hard to break it down. But, yeah. Anyway, I mean, basically, Henry would eventually die in 1547. But what’s crucial—and I remember this so—this is one of the things I remember from school history the most clearly—is my history teacher saying, “Henry died a Catholic, just not a Roman.” And that’s the key thing because I think a lot of people think that he died a Protestant.’
Anna Morris: ‘Yeah.’
Artie Mead: ‘But he didn’t.’
Anna Morris: ‘I mean, he then later—which we’ll go into in the next episode—he then later kind of… I think he panicked a little bit.’
Artie Mead: ‘And thought he’d gone too far—’
Artie Mead: ‘At how it was kind of escalating. And he actually then started passing laws that, you know, reinstated certain bits of doctrine. Because, you know, he didn’t want to lose that. For example, the idea of baptism and Holy Communion as sacraments. I think—I mean, it took the scholars a long time to figure out how far we push this. Like, do we now start—if we are disputing the authority of the clergy, that opens up Pandora’s box of other things. Okay, if the clergy aren’t there, then does that mean they have no right to distribute Holy Communion? Does that mean… is it, you know… it just goes on and on. So these were obviously topics that were debated a long, long time after Henry was gone.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘But, yeah—’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah. And so, I mean, that—well, that kind of encapsulates it, really. Like, the reverberations of—’
Anna Morris: ‘And still being debated.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yeah, exactly. And well, as you can see now, between these two very clever, very beautiful historians that you see in front of you now. So, you know, initiated to the English Reformation. Which itself was initiated, basically, you could say, by Henry’s desire for a male heir. Because I think that was a big part of the reason why he wanted to then divorce Catherine and marry Anne.’
Anna Morris: ‘If he’s got a male heir, he wouldn’t have married Anne Boleyn.’
Artie Mead: ‘Yes, exactly. So that was the kind of—as well, I mean, we’ve talked about it—this was the root cause of his six wives, of his—yeah. And now we can say the break with Rome. It was basically the root cause of everything that he’s famous for. So, yeah. Profoundly altered the religious and political landscape of England, and, you know, with reverberations that we can still feel today. So, crazy, crazy, crazy stuff.’
Anna Morris: ‘Crazy stuff. A real-life Game of Thrones.’
Artie Mead: ‘A real-life Game of Thrones. A real Game of Thrones. A real Game of Thrones.’
Anna Morris: ‘Real-life Game of Thrones.’
Artie Mead: ‘Cool. Okay, well, do you have anything else you want to add?’
Anna Morris: ‘No. Just see you next time.’
Artie Mead: ‘Cool. Okay. Well then, yeah. Thank you, guys. I hope you found that interesting.’
Anna Morris: ‘A lot to digest.’
Artie Mead: ‘Also, we still need to go to Wittenberg at some point.’
Anna Morris: ‘We will. We’re going to nail our own 95 theses.’
Artie Mead: ‘Nail our… yeah.’
Anna Morris: ‘We’re going to make our own new religion.’
Artie Mead: ‘And yeah. Well, anyway, guys, I hope you found that enlightening. Thank you very much for listening and watching. And we will see you next time when we talk about the last three wives of Henry VIII. So, yeah, see you next time.’
Anna Morris: ‘Laters.’
Artie Mead: ‘Bye.’
Anna Morris: ‘Bye.’